[GT182]

I hauled GM cars and trucks for 14 years. They killed Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Hummer and Saturn. There isn't a GM brand left that I'd buy. Warranties suck, the dealers are thieves... as are all of the dealers for the so called Big 3. Besides that most of us out there that are retired can't afford a new car. The prices have gone right out of sight for the crap we have available to buy. Think about it. That's reasons I'm still driving my 2000 Jeep GC.

Even the 2014 Ford Focus we have is a piece of crap just for the transmission alone. We've had it into the shop 5 times for the clutches in it and they still can't fix it so there's no more problems with the transmission. BTW... there's no Lemmon Law here in Delaware to use against Ford, so that thought is out the window.

[Scarebird]

so now it's the union's fault?

hint: it wasn't.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

so now it's the union's fault?

hint: it wasn't.

It's kinda hard to deny their culpability, their ill-gotten gains came at the
expense of bondholders. At bare minimum, that made them complicit.

[66sprint6]

Any investment guru will tell you that if a company wants to borrow money for expansion, then that's good. If a company wants to borrow money to stay afloat, then that's not good and they will not lend that company money. That's why they couldn't raise any private money.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

I don’t have any desire to own a foreign car- even high end. When my wife needed a new car we looked a BMW’s and Mercedes just didn’t like them.

So- as I posted earlier- quality aside... does anyone like anything GM sells besides trucks, camaro and corvette? I honestly couldn’t tell you what else they sell? None of it seems to interest me

But.......

[GT182]

I'm pro union, but the UAW for all US car makers tied to it isn't helping matters. Actually unions are hurting themselves these days. I've heard stories about the workers in auto/truck plants that the UAW is getting the shaft for what workers have done to make matters worse. They should have been fired, but the union protects them.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by GT182

I'm pro union, but the UAW for all US car makers tied to it isn't helping matters. Actually unions are hurting themselves these days. I've heard stories about the workers in auto/truck plants that the UAW is getting the shaft for what workers have done to make matters worse. They should have been fired, but the union protects them.

That is definitely on the con side of this pro con situation. Im also a pro union guy, because we've tried it the other way before. 8 year olds in sweatshops and whatnot. But there are definitely downsides.

But to be real, thats a problem across the board. It is very difficult to fire someone for being bad at their job. Make an off color joke and youll be gone real quick, but as long as you show up every day you will likely keep your gig.

Im not one to be quick for calling for someones job, I think we lose site of how much it would hurt most of us to be suddenly fired. That said, because the threat really isnt there at all now, giving someone a talking to doesnt have much behind it.

Also FWIW, while you can always find horror stories, In general I think its probably much harder to find a bad car now than it was in say 1977. There is a reason the standard powertrain is like 60,000 miles plus now. Ive had a newer buick and a new Ram in the last 10 years. Both have been fine. I will agree with Cliff that my Ram is more thirsty than a feel a modern vehicle should be.


I also agree that if you want to buy american you should look more than just where the corporate headquarters is. I couldnt care less about why mega rich guy at the tip top of the chain gets a little richer. Its more important to me that there are more good jobs offered here. If that is a Toyota, so be it.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

so now it's the union's fault?

hint: it wasn't.

It was definitely a factor.

Gm wasn’t in trouble for sales, as they were just behind Toyota. Because of unions wages and benefits that helped drive the assembly costs up hurting their profit margin. Ever compared how much a Toyota cost to assemble in Indiana in a non union plant vs a Chevy in Detroit ?

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by GT182

I'm pro union, but the UAW for all US car makers tied to it isn't helping matters. Actually unions are hurting themselves these days. I've heard stories about the workers in auto/truck plants that the UAW is getting the shaft for what workers have done to make matters worse. They should have been fired, but the union protects them.

I am to, but not when they protect bad workers. In my blue collar machining days I saw our union protect drunks on dangerous equipment, people sleeping and just general laziness which ticked off those of us who actually worked. That’s not what unions were originally intended for when they started.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

But.......

Exactly.

['ol Pinion head]

The "old" GM to "new GM" Obozo Adm/UAW Bailout FIASCO also screwed over many salaried GM retirees.
Know my Dad put over 50K in a fund that was to provide a long term healthcare benefit if he was gravely ill. Dad gave over 36 years of faithful service to GM, worked his #ss off the company... Don't know all the details, but do know it was his $$$$ in that fund & TONs of other salaried retirees lost similar amts. Thank the Lord, he & my Mom were smart enough to trade off all of their GM stock by the early 90's & get into a much more diversified portfolio.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

so now it's the union's fault?

hint: it wasn't.

Who said it was? The UAW was selected to be a winner by the Obama Administration; the shareholders were castigated as “greedy”. One group of those shareholders was the Indiana State Teachers Retirement fund. They lost over $60 million when the Obama DOJ “reinterpreted” ESTABLISHED legal precedents to reward UAW campaign donations and support. You can attempt to polish a turd all you like. It’s STILL a turd when all is said and done.

[jerry455]

So showing plants in other countries, so what. All of the manufacturers have plants in other countries. GM builds cars there for their market there. They are different than what we get here.South America had S 10's until a few years ago. Other countries have different automotive standards that they have the companies build to.

[Stuart]

All that can be said has been said, and the discussion is turning to unions and politics, so it's time to close this discussion.