Pontiac - Street No question too basic here!

          
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-26-2021, 01:08 PM
77 TRASHCAN's Avatar
77 TRASHCAN 77 TRASHCAN is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 31May2013 Temporary home to the world's widest (that we know of) tornado. Lord, NO more Please...
Posts: 6,591
Default

If you want an econo build, get a stock O.E.M. cast crank, not an aftermarket cast crank. Too many folks have had problems with aftermarket cast units.

Since the budget isn't an extreme concern, get forged pistons and rods.

Butler may be able and willing to fix you up with what you WANT. THey are tried and true Pontiac enthusiasts, Most folks don't advertise standard pistons, likely on thought of few of these old blocks possibly being able to pass an inspection (like yours hopefully will).

I know many don't mind using a cast piston, I just do NOT! I built a 283 in the early 80's it got forged pistons! I still have the engine under my work bench!!! It was running as good the day it was removed from my 67 Bel Air as the day it got fired up on the dyno...(stockish build, just as your 455 intends to be!)

Man that picture looks outstanding!!!

__________________
1977 Black Trans Am 180 HP Auto, essentially base model T/A.
I'm the original owner, purchased May 7, 1977.

Shut it off
Shut it off
Buddy, I just shut your Prius down...
  #22  
Old 01-26-2021, 01:09 PM
Sirrotica's Avatar
Sirrotica Sirrotica is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Catawba Ohio
Posts: 7,193
Default

The new cast 455 cranks aren't that expensive, Eagle is around $300 from Butler. Then you can either buy inexpensive re conditioned rods, or go for the cheapest forged rods available, around $300 a set from Butler.

As many people that have taken out cast factory pistons and had their blocks bored and replaced them with forged, someone on PY should have a set of used standard bore pistons they'd part with cheap. Probably not the optimum way to rebuild an engine, but it's been done before with positive results.

I've taken more than a few 400s down with minimum cylinder wear and re ringed them to standard bore, used the OEM cast rods, and pistons. Selected bearings that had upper end clearances, and put them in street stock type oval track cars that ran for years under pretty severe circumstances. The main problem is getting enough bearing clearance so that when the crank expands, there is enough bearing clearance that it doesn't grab the bearing and spin it. Factory bearing clearances are too tight for sustained high RPM, they'll spin a bearing usually within a week of installing the engine.

The 67 GTO in my signature pics was run hard for 2 years with factory rings and pistons, just a new oil pump and selected fit bearings, and a fresh 068 cam, and lifters and timing components. After 2 years of dirt track running I sold and installed it into a 68 Firebird street car, and that guy ran it for years, until the body got so rusty it wouldn't pass PA inspection any longer, but the engine was still running just fine.

It's nice if you can afford to have the block all machined back to where it was when new, but I've done more than a few Pontiacs with just a basic rebuild, and put them back on the street, or track, without sinking thousands of dollars into them. They've been reliable in my experiences, because I just didn't have the resources at the time to afford better, but still wanted to race, or drive my street car. Believe me chevy guys do this type of refresh a lot, and live to tell about it.

__________________
Brad Yost
1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated


Last edited by Sirrotica; 01-26-2021 at 01:18 PM.
  #23  
Old 01-26-2021, 01:12 PM
crustysarge crustysarge is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern Italy
Posts: 522
Default

Buddy called and told me heavy rain so he will go tomorrow to get it. Apparently has a set of heads as well. I am probably gonna stick with new components. I have to get all work done there, machine work here is too costly. I have a very good guy I trust north of Venice in Treviso but just too much. Balancing and all needs to be done in the States.

  #24  
Old 01-26-2021, 01:46 PM
ta man ta man is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clinton,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 5,348
Default

Almost makes sense to just use it for a core and have a completed shortblock shipped? Or the other way is shipever ything over and have all the machine work done there even if it costs more..then if you have an issue you can deal with the guy directly.

__________________

466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2
373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor
best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471
  #25  
Old 01-26-2021, 01:52 PM
Scarebird's Avatar
Scarebird Scarebird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: ABQ, USA
Posts: 4,998
Default

Given that you are in Italy with high priced fuel, have you given thought of destroking the 455?

Rocky Rotella mentions in his excellent Trans Am book the 366; a NASCAR qualified 6 liter in the early 70's.
Pontiac engineering made a few test motors in street form, using round port heads. They found that they hit a "sweet spot", it had the same torque and more power than a 400 but sales squashed it. This motor had a 3.375 stroke and large bore - 4.180" so a 455 would be a natch for this.

Issue of course is the crank - it would take some work to make one work - perhaps a 428 unit with custom rods?

  #26  
Old 01-26-2021, 02:02 PM
Bruce Meyer's Avatar
Bruce Meyer Bruce Meyer is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Phoenix, Az
Posts: 1,385
Default

Here is some good advice. Do not, under any circumstances, put an aftermarket CAST crank in this motor. Ive seen too many destroyed engines from Chinese cast crank failures. If you want to use a cast crank, use a factory (Pontiac) crank in it. Scat forged cranks have a good reputation. The others, not so much.

  #27  
Old 01-26-2021, 02:19 PM
ta man ta man is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clinton,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 5,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarebird View Post
Given that you are in Italy with high priced fuel, have you given thought of destroking the 455?

Rocky Rotella mentions in his excellent Trans Am book the 366; a NASCAR qualified 6 liter in the early 70's.
Pontiac engineering made a few test motors in street form, using round port heads. They found that they hit a "sweet spot", it had the same torque and more power than a 400 but sales squashed it. This motor had a 3.375 stroke and large bore - 4.180" so a 455 would be a natch for this.

Issue of course is the crank - it would take some work to make one work - perhaps a 428 unit with custom rods?
A 455 can be built to get 20mpg

__________________

466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2
373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor
best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471
  #28  
Old 01-26-2021, 02:27 PM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firechicken View Post
Standard, but those are 400 pistons.


  #29  
Old 01-26-2021, 03:04 PM
grandam1979 grandam1979 is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ohio, Findlay
Posts: 1,428
Default

For what your doing I would have all machine work on block checked by a shop you trust. Then I would contact Butler or KRE for a complete rotating assembly that way you get the complete assembly balanced with all bearings and rings included. I personally like Butlers site better easy to use and easy to pick the assembly combo you want. They also have all gaskets you will need. I don’t now your situation but the rotating assembly could ship right from them you would never have to touch it. Just my 2˘ good luck with it.

  #30  
Old 01-26-2021, 03:06 PM
crustysarge crustysarge is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern Italy
Posts: 522
Default

Thanks guys. Yeah, gas is costly here but you drive much less. Pump gas is 90 US octane (95 RoN) so OK. I get the block shipped for free since my buddy is moving and will throw it in with his household goods. The more I look at it I see going ahead with boring to .030 and getting forged stroker kit. Budget not really a problem. Machine work is high here. I recently had a 400 I got on a trade here that was .030 fresh and I needed .035 for a Butler stroker kit I had so shop basically did a "heavy hone". It was 600 Euros to do that and deck the block. That is $730. The price was discounted and no tax because I know the guy. That gives you an idea of what machine work is here. That did not include any other work, not even tanking. Nobody here does magnaflux either.

  #31  
Old 01-26-2021, 03:09 PM
grandam1979 grandam1979 is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ohio, Findlay
Posts: 1,428
Default

One other thought you could ship block to Butler have them assemble it crate it and ship it. They do a lot of that kind of shipping. Just a thought

  #32  
Old 01-26-2021, 03:21 PM
Scarebird's Avatar
Scarebird Scarebird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: ABQ, USA
Posts: 4,998
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crustysarge View Post
...I had so shop basically did a "heavy hone". It was 600 Euros to do that and deck the block. That is $730. The price was discounted and no tax because I know the guy...


A 455 can be built to get 20mpg

Most built units I have seen get high single digit. That said I am not a fan of under square motors, especial with manuals - but this a a decision for Aviano, not me. My current Pontiac mill is a 400 bored with a 4.00 stroke crank to 440.

  #33  
Old 01-26-2021, 03:30 PM
crustysarge crustysarge is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern Italy
Posts: 522
Default

Butler is backed up for months for machine work and even some stroker kits. I do my own builds, have all necessary precision tools.

  #34  
Old 01-26-2021, 04:33 PM
Will Will is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 5,297
Default

Is Butler backed up on shipping rotating assemblies? I think that's the way I'd go if I was you, if they can ship it when you need it. That way you get everything you need in one tidy package. They should be able to tell you the target bore size for the pistons, too, so you can have the block machined before it's shipped to you. Then you just put it together and away you go.

I do agree though that I'd much rather have a factory crank than a cast Chinese crank. Maybe you can source a factory crank over here and have it shipped with your block and have Butler put a kit together with everything but the crank?

__________________
----------------------------
'72 Formula 400 Lucerne Blue, Blue Deluxe interior - My first car!
'73 Firebird 350/4-speed Black on Black, mix & match.
  #35  
Old 01-26-2021, 06:04 PM
ta man ta man is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clinton,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 5,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarebird View Post


A 455 can be built to get 20mpg

Most built units I have seen get high single digit. That said I am not a fan of under square motors, especial with manuals - but this a a decision for Aviano, not me. My current Pontiac mill is a 400 bored with a 4.00 stroke crank to 440.
Mine will get 18 plus on the highway..I have a buddy that gets close to 20mpg..it's not the 1980's engines can be built to be efficient..good heads ,ample compression and wise cam choice..no need to get marginal fuel mileage

__________________

466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2
373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor
best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471
  #36  
Old 01-26-2021, 06:42 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,283
Default

Street engine, might want to use a OEM 455 crank that has been checked out vs dealing with issues of "chyna" cast cranks. I have had issues and have as much money in a cast chyna crank as a new forging.

  #37  
Old 01-27-2021, 06:44 PM
crustysarge crustysarge is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern Italy
Posts: 522
Default

Follow up. Turns out block is fresh .030 over and for sure a hone has been through the journals and lifter bores as well. Has new cam bearings installed. Looks great. Surprise: 9799103 crank in a box dated 2001 from Atlanta Crankshaft Exchange turned .020 on mains and .010 on rods. Nice and clean and stored well and dry. Stock rods and pistons were in a milk crate and a pair of tanked bare 4x-1h heads. Not bad for $250 and couple hours on the road. Not drilled for 4 bolt, YY code with 5 May 73 date. YY is a 74 car block, built in May, seems kind of early.

So that opens the piston choice up quite a bit. I might get a set of rods (link below) and some pistons just get it balanced with the stock crank and call it a day. But I need to weigh out costs. What is an average price for balancing in the States these days?

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234812


Last edited by crustysarge; 01-27-2021 at 07:09 PM.
  #38  
Old 01-27-2021, 06:57 PM
steve25's Avatar
steve25 steve25 is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Westchester NY
Posts: 14,633
Default

While getting it checked for cracks I would also want to confirm that all 16 lifter bores are good and that the Cam bore is straight.

The long stroke of a 455 that gets beat on while the block is still green tends to throw things out of plumb!

__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #39  
Old 01-28-2021, 03:22 AM
Greg Reid's Avatar
Greg Reid Greg Reid is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Palmetto, GA. USA
Posts: 16,163
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i82much View Post
our engines are all gonna blow up and then we’re all gonna die!!!!
That's at least half right....probably more.

__________________
Greg Reid
Palmetto, Georgia

  #40  
Old 01-28-2021, 05:21 PM
crustysarge crustysarge is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern Italy
Posts: 522
Default

So I priced out Ross forged pistons and Eagle Forged I beams, bearings, rings and it came to $1,235 on Butler to have an idea. Using the stock crank that is turned and ready means balancing, so let's say $250 for balancing if all goes well (internal balance). $1,500, for $300 more get a Butler kit with Eagle cast crank and H beams ready to go no hassle.

Not gonna spend money on reconditioning stock rods and buying cast pistons at this point.

How many have recent cast crank experience, not from years back? Butler's goal is to sell them for sure but here is what they say: "Cast crankshafts are an excellent alternative to O.E. Cranks. These crankshafts are new cast pieces made with modern material and casting processes to be a great alternative to 30 year old factory cranks. Recommended for use in street engines without power adders. Many factory cranks we check have stress cracks, so even though your crank has not broken yet, you may have a problem developing that could destroy your engine."

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:36 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017