[zbuickman]

what is that on the rocker??? a Gaurd or big sill plate or what

[poison heart]

Very interesting thread, When was that photo taken? I guess that was when it was revealed?

[chrisp]

The gentlemen that owns the car said that the rocker area is applied cast aluminum overlays , as well as the cast aluminum front side exhaust . He still has all the parts . I am getting some of his private photos soon . Did you notice the odd square headlights , and the grilles ? They were heavy aluminum as well . [The color of the pic appears like a solid red car, not a red firemist color ]. I sent him that pic. and that is what he said about the color .Thank you

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by chrisp

You found it , i was talking on the phone today to the owner of this car and some of the parts he has .

Wow. At the risk of stating the obvious: that's quite a find. I'd like to hear more.

Originally Posted by poison heart

Very interesting thread, When was that photo taken? I guess that was when it was revealed?

That picture was taken inside the Design Dome, so I'd have to guess right after the car was completed or while is was actively on the show circuit.

Here's another pic:



This was taken outside at the GM Tech Center, in front of the Design Studio (facing east, toward the Engineering Building, I believe).

Notice that it says the car was "based on a GTO convertible". This could mean the show car was built on a pre-existing '64 GTO (in which case the show car would not be the "first"). Or, it could simply mean it was built conceptually on what was to be a '64 GTO convertible. Interesting to think about and certainly a significant car.

Almost forgot: those "Cibie" square headlamps - they were not street legal but were very popular with the designers of the day (...for some reason...probably because they were "different"). They were used on several of the Grand Prix show cars as well.

K

[John V.]

The Flamme is definitely a cool story. There are a lot of pix of it being modified by Design Studio craftsmen. I can go back to the articles (I recall a couple different ones, I think GTO Enthusiast before it became PE had a big story and lots of photos.

No doubt in my mind, this was a conversion of a Production Vehicle. The pix I recall show the craftsman taking the car apart and adding the mildly customized features.

It was done up for the NY World's Fair which opened in April, 1964.

Unless I am VERY mistaken, there is no way the Flamme was an early production car and certainly not the 1st GTO.

What I was not aware of is that the car still exists.

Surely the Data Plate and possibly the VIN (assuming it still wears an original VIN tag) would reveal the truth if it does exist.

I'm assuming you are not talking about the X-400 Show Car? There were a few different versions of the X-400. I believe only the one based on the '63 GP is known to exist, I seem to recall it was for sale not long ago.

The Owner's story seems inconsistent with the facts. Licensed as a 63-1/2? What does that mean? When was it found in Chicago? If it wasn't even displayed until the World's Fair in April, I hope he hasn't suggested "finding" it before then.

There was a Lemans Convertible displayed at the Chicago Auto Show for '64. The Chicago Show was held Feb. 8-16, 1964. There is a pic of this car floating around purporting to be of the Flamme. It is definitely not, not even a GTO.

http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/histo...?d=1960&y=1964

[John V.]

GTO Enthusiast Vol. 1, Issue 5. Authored by Paul Zazarine.

Opening words, "In the spring of 1964, Pontiac released the "Flamme GTO".

Later, "Upon delivery to the Pontiac Studio, the lower rocker trim was removed..."

"The car was repainted Candy Apple Red."

"...machine-turned aluminum applique was retained. Walnut trim was applied to the switch control panels.""

Car was a 4 bbl with auto trans. Seats were reupholstered in leather Door Panels were customized, but otherwise pretty stock interior appearance. Console top painted Candy Apple.

Doesn't mention the World's Fair connection and says nothing about what became of it.

I was at the World's Fair not long after it opened. I remember quite a bit about my day there. I wish I could tell you I vividly recall seeing the Flamme, but I don't.

I think more of the story might be in an issue of The Legend. I'll see if I can find it.

[Tom Vaught]

If you look close John at your "Le Flamme" pics, (Flamme is French therefore the correct name is "Le Flamme GTO", you will see a photo of the technicians using a template to correctly position the "GTO" crest holes on the otherwise stock LeMans front fenders.

Also you notice the mention of a "matching Walnut applique on the instrument panel". Same deal I had on my "Zone" convertible.

Tom Vaught



I won a prize at one of the national conventions many years ago when a GM Designer Executive asked the crowd if anyone knew what the car's name was. I was the only one that got the name correct in the audience.

[triathlonx13]

I wonder if some people understand the concept of a pilot run ... and the operations of manufacturing...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

There was a Lemans Convertible displayed at the Chicago Auto Show for '64. The Chicago Show was held Feb. 8-16, 1964. There is a pic of this car floating around purporting to be of the Flamme. It is definitely not, not even a GTO.

Here's a pic of the display at the Chicago Auto show:

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

I wonder if some people understand the concept of a pilot run ... and the operations of manufacturing...

I do...

...but I don't understand your point. Can you expand a bit?

K

[triathlonx13]

Post #36

[Keith Seymore]

I see.

I'm surprised to hear to you say that. John is amazing with VINs and build dates and codes and such. He's my "go to" guy for that kind of detail and I hope he is learning a little bit from me in comparison to the ton I am learning from him.

In his (or our) defense, it is very difficult to discern between a production vehicle and a (saleable) pilot vehicle 45 years after the fact. For those programs that I have personally been involved in, I keep a list (an Excel spreadsheet) of the VINs and the build timeframe (Integration Non Saleable, Manufacturing Non Saleable, Manufacturing Saleable, and early Regular Production). As a result I can go back and determine the build timeframe for a particular vehicle, as an aid in diagnosing a build problem or determining the scope of a retrofit activity, but for vehicles built decades ago without a similar list it is virtually impossible.

That is why I am so interested in the early '65 model year vehicles that have an "X" on the cowl tag; I am hoping that distinguishes them as a saleable Pilot build as opposed to an early production vehicle.

I have some additional comments (about some other stuff) but I'll have to shoot you a PM for those.

K

[John V.]

Tom, I only looked at the pix in the GTO Enthusiast, I don't think the pix you describe are in that story. Can you point me to another article? I know I have at least one other article with more pix. Can't remember if it was in HPP or The Legend perhaps.

On the applique, see the quote I included. According to what was described by Zazarine, the swirled aluminum GTO applique remained. Only the "switch controls" got the walnut trim. Since there are no pix of this, I don't know if he meant the Heater Control panel (the car did NOT have A/C) got covered in walnut trim or perhaps the ribbed moldings across the lower dash were covered by the walnut trim. Either way, he implies the swirled aluminum remained exposed, so I don't think this is quite the same deal as on yours. Perhaps there is a better pic showing the instrument panel that would tell us for sure.

Triathlonx13, #36 is my post. Not sure if you are asking what I know about the concept of pilot cars and manufacturing operations. I know a good bit about engineering in a manufacturing environment, not specific to car production. Keith & Tom certainly have more direct experience with that.

As to the concept of "pilot cars" or pre-production final assembly line operations that occurred during model year changeover relating to any of the cars being discussed in this thread, I do not understand the relevance.

I know a little bit about how cars were produced at the Pontiac Plant. I know that the line speed when P008950 was produced was at 50/hr. or more. By deduction, I know that the Fisher Body operation was churning out completed Body Assemblies at a rate sufficient to keep up with the final line at the same time.

The biggest open question is whether PMD had really only planned 5000 GTO units or 30,000 plus. Either way, that is a LOT of GTOs on a daily basis.

It is purely speculation on my part that PMD hoped to sell more not fewer. The very fact that they built Zone Announcement GTOs suggests they hoped to sell more than a few. The publicity generated by the Z.A. cars would have done PMD no good if they didn't have GTOs to immediately sell. The well known Press Release announcing the GTO would have been pointless if they didn't already have GTOs in stock across all 27 Zones when the new '64s went on sale Oct 3rd (IIRC the date correctly).

I assume necessary pre-production work took place in August during the changeover shutdown. When '64 production commenced on Sept 3rd, they didn't simply kick the line on at max rate. Guys had to learn the job. If there was an assembly glitch, that had to be sorted out. But this was production, they still produced 2000+ cars in the first 8 days. As the days ticked by, the speed ramped up. It is pretty easy to figure out the approx. line speed from available records.

That's what I "know", perhaps better to say, that's what I believe to be a fairly accurate view of the production environment during that time frame.

Please jump in with better info or if you have a different interpretation. I am always interested in learning.

[triathlonx13]

John - Thanks for further clarifying your experience and thoughts.

"When '64 production commenced on Sept 3rd, they didn't simply kick the line on at max rate. Guys had to learn the job. If there was an assembly glitch, that had to be sorted out. But this was production, they still produced 2000+ cars in the first 8 days. As the days ticked by, the speed ramped up. It is pretty easy to figure out the approx. line speed from available records.

That's what I "know", perhaps better to say, that's what I believe to be a fairly accurate view of the production environment during that time frame"

From this statement I do realize that you clearly understand manufacturing realities as it pertains to manufacturing start ups / etc.

It's good to question and to dive deeper, as that is how we learn and not go blind on only one source.

[chrisp]

This is the owners reply ------[My car was the Flamme, it was a one of a kind show car they created for the circuit. Pontaic customized a conv. and used it on the show circuit. I was told when I bought it at nineteen, it was the first and from all I new it was. No matter, it was a one of a kind GTO, I felt they made for me and I drove it like it was the first. Nobody will ever know the vin numbers except me and nobody will ever own it. I am shipping out your order I did include some show pics and one of me at nineteen when I brought it home. I hope I didn't stir things up, sorry-------I didn't get it until Aug 65 ]. I will post the pics. when i receive them >Thank you He also said it was hand made fenders and a fiberglass functional hood . I will try to get the vin.#s. thanks again

[John V.]

Chrisp, when you talk to him again, tell him he most definitely has "stirred things up", but nothing to be sorry about!

I'm curious how you even became aware of the car or who else knows that it exists?

Did he contribute to the articles previously written or is he unaware of those stories? What can he add about the history of the car from the documentation he has? Was he just in the right place at the right time or did he have PMD connections when he acquired it? What was the price?

I don't know if this car would be in the same collectibility class as the recent SD that turned up.

But migawd, it is a pretty significant one off PMD custom creation, mild but still fascinating. If the Monkeemobile has appeal in the GTO hobby, surely this car does.

It didn't spend time on the show circuit to my knowledge, it was probably viewed by millions at the '64-'65 NY World's Fair (a more prominent venue than the various Auto Shows IMO).

The Fair was open April to Oct in both '64 & '65. My guess is that the Flamme would have only appeared the 1st Season, since it was "last years" model even by Oct. '64 when the 1st Fair season ended.

And if the present Owner acquired it in Aug. '65, obviously, the car was not around at the end.

I have no idea if it would have appeared at other Shows after World's Fair duty. It would be neat if some more of the history of the car could be turned up prior to his ownership.

Does he know about the World's Fair connection? To me, that connection makes the car more significant than if it had simply been displayed at one or more Auto Shows.

Can't wait to see pix. What's he need to put it back together?

If he won't share the VIN, would he be willing to tell us what is on the Data Plate?

[John V.]

I still believe I have another article with more pix of the Flamme being customized in the Design Studio, but either I'm wrong, or I just can't locate it.

I did find a 2nd story from the Sept/Oct 1996 issue of PE by Jeff Denison titled, "The 1964 World's Fair Show Cars".

Much of it concerns the '64 X-400 that as it turns out was the '63 X-400 with updates, new front end, and a color change to a "rich burgundy".

Three previously unpublished color pics of the X-400 and three of the GTO Flamme are in the article, including the one Keith posted earlier. All different views taken on the same carpet in the Styling Dome the day before the cars were shipped to the World's Fair (date not stated).

It concludes the X-400 story mentioning that it is in a private collection in Arizona being restored to the '63 iteration which was painted Pearl Yellow.

Jeff then discusses the GTO Flamme. Here he mentions something I had forgotten.

He says the GTO Flamme "may also have been reworked from an earlier show car."

I was wrong about the Chicago Auto Show car not being a "Flamme". According to Jeff, turns out the Convertible seen in the black & white photo from the '64 Chicago Auto Show was also named "Flamme" and the exterior of the car was Candy Apple Red.

Jeff describes the seat trim and door panels as being identical to the later "GTO Flamme" that went to the World's Fair which is what makes it possible that the Chicago Auto Show Convertible was transformed into the World's Fair GTO.

Could be. However, the Paul Zazarine article includes a pic of the car with the interior ripped out and seen with what appears to be a stock GTO hood. The front fender is also seen, but the GTO nameplate is either not there or the pic is simply too dark to detect it. Another pic shows the Upper Instrument Panel, no aluminum insert but the caption says "The factory-installed aluminum applique was reinstalled."

Could be, but why was it removed in the first place? Could it have been a Lemans I.P. and the applique added to transform it to a GTO?

Unless the pix are dated, I sure can't be sure if these pix reflect the custom interior work for the Chicago car or the W.F. car. For that matter, is there anybody that wants to swear the Chicago car didn't have a GTO hood (accounting for the pic with the apparently standard GTO hood installed?

I based my earlier comment that the Chicago car was not even a GTO because it shows the "Pontiac" nampeplate in the Grille. Could this car have been a GTO but with the "Pontiac" nameplate substituted for some identification reason?

Regardless of whether the Chicago car was transformed into the W.F. GTO Flamme or if the W.F GTO was started from a different car but got basically the same interior appointments, obviously the appearance of the W.F. car was more dramatically customized on the exterior.

Jeff also describes the W.F. GTO engine. Whereas Zazarine only mentioned the Flamme engine as having been a 4 bbl 389, Jeff says the GTO Flamme got a Tri-Power 389 but with the chromed single air cleaner from the big Pontiac plus chromed valve covers, chromed PS Pump, chromed Pulleys, and a chromed fan shroud.

Some of the custom features were the fiberglass hood with functional twin scoops, bullet mirrors (RH & LH), rectangular headlights with custom chrome grilles, and chrome reverse wheels. All of which were not seen on the Chicago car.

He concludes by saying the whereabouts of the GTO Flamme are unknown.

I'm inclined to believe the Chicago car and the W.F. car were two separate cars. Assuming the pix in the Zazarine article were taken of the car being prepped for the W.F. after the Chicago Show was over there are two details that stand out in the one pic that suggest this would not have been the Chicago car.

First, the presence of the standard GTO Hood that I already mentioned. Second, the car has Whitewall Tires (hub caps or wheel discs removed at the time of the photo). The Chicago Flamme appears to have Red Lines. These would not have been allowed on a regular production Lemans, but certainly could have been added for the Show. But why would the tires in the pic be Whitewall if the car had just come back from the Chicago Show for transformation?

The Data Plate may or may not offer conclusive evidence, but if the Data Plate shows a build date after the Chicago Show, that would make it impossible to have been the same car.

I continue to believe that the W.F. car is by far the more significant car anyway. Whether it started life as a Lemans or whether it was originally given a customized interior and special paint for the Chicago Show and then transformed, or whether it started life as a Tri-Power GTO and was directly customized for the W.F. is immaterial in my mind.

The only other '64 GTO that springs to my mind that would be more historically significant would be the Nocturne Blue Car & Driver car that David E. Davis, Jr. gushed over but that car was reportedly wrecked/destroyed. The Grenadier Red car that also went to Daytona still exists but since the testing was almost entirely on the Blue car and was the one Mr. Davis spent about 10 days with and drove to Daytona from NYC in with his family, I consider it the more significant by far.

Next come the Zone Announcement GTOs. Whereabouts unknown and nothing very interesting about the builds. Most GTO hobbyists probably have little knowledge of them. A late '64 GTO optioned with the Code 8 4 speed would be pretty special, good luck finding one of those.

Am I forgetting any other '64 GTO of special significance?

Am I the only one that thinks this car could be the most significant and valuable '64 GTO in existence (even if it came off the line as a Lemans, which I doubt)?

[mfd64gto]

I have a PHS documented '64 GTO Coupe, tri-power, 4 speed, posi, Yorktown Blue with dark blue interior. It has standard steering and brakes and very few options since it was bought to race. It was built in Pontiac, 11c, 11-12-63. It seems to me that this is one of the earlier ones extant. In addition, I check out data tags on other '64s and I have seen one older than mine. That car is a red '64 that was campaigned by Royal Pontiac. It was at a meet at the Pontiac Administration Building and I was talking to Milt Shornack who was displaying the car. He told me that mine was also an early car. His was coded 10B if I remember correctly. If Royal didn't have an earlier car, I don't know who would.

[triathlonx13]

See Post #33 09C

[Tom Vaught]

John, Like I said, I have a cd that Paul Z sent me (somewhere) that shows no GTO crest on the left front fender and a Technician using a clear plastic sheet template to add the correct holes in the right location on the fender for the GTO Crest.

I don't think the World's Fair Flamme was a GTO initially. Why would you have to drill the fenders on a production GTO?

Interesting that the owner received his Flamme GTO in August 1965 which was with-in a month of when my uncle took delivery of my zone car. August of 1965 would have been basically production time for 1966 GTOs and turn-over of company vehicles for newer vehicles (at least for Ford). My car was built in the last 4 months of 64 GTO production. Does the turn-over fit with the normal GM turn-over dates, Keith?

Tom Vaught