[John V.]

Tom, I would love the chance to see the pix you got from Zazarine.

Here's what I know. Pontiac displayed a mildly modified Convertible at the Chicago Auto Show, from Feb. 8-16, 1964.

They called it "Flamme". Custom candy apple red paint and a matching red interior with custom leather seat covers & door panels. Wire wheel discs with thin stripe, what appear to be Red Line, Tires. No apparent GTO identification from the one known pic (wonder what the Dash Nameplate showed?). Unknown if it had a smooth hood or a factory GTO hood. Engine unknown, doesn't wear 326 fender badging in one known pic. Standard Lemans Grille with "Pontiac" Grille nameplate. Standard headlamps.

They then exhibited a more highly modified Convertible at the NY World's Fair which opened to the public on April 22, 1964.

They called it "GTO Flamme". Same candy apple red paint, same or very similar red interior, supposedly had the GTO swirled aluminum dash insert installed on the Instrument Panel although only pic I've seen shows the I.P. out of the car without the Insert installed, Zazarine's caption claiming the Insert was subsequently "reinstalled".

GTO Flamme had fiberglass hood with scoops that gave similar appearance to factory GTO hood. Had GTO Fender badging and exhaust cutouts. Custom Grille and rectangular headlamps.

Red Lines mounted on Chrome reverse wheels.

Denison claims this car had a Tri-Power engine, additional Chrome accents with big car Chrome Air Cleaner.

Tom has pic showing Fender being drilled for GTO Fender Nameplate. Suggests non-GTO Fenders.

Zazarine showed a pic of the interior ripped out while undergoing mods, car has factory GTO Hood installed.

Questions:

1. Were there two separate cars or was the World's Fair "GTO Flamme" modified from the earlier Chicago Auto Show "Flamme"?

2. If one car, was it originally a GTO or Lemans?

3. If two cars, was the World's Fair car originally a GTO?

I think there is evidence to suggest you could go either way on the 1st question.

Tom, I agree you wouldn't have to drill the holes on factory GTO fenders. And assuming the Chicago Auto Show Flamme did not sport GTO fender badges, I guess you have to conclude that the pic shows the car being modified for the World's Fair. Is the rocker molding already removed at that point and wouldn't they have had to fill holes in the fender and rocker when they did that?

But how do you explain the factory GTO hood appearing in the pic I mentioned? If the Chicago car was not a GTO, did it possibly have a GTO hood anyway? If the World's Fair car was not a GTO and made use of a fiberglass hood, what car was in the pic showing a factory GTO hood?

Also, the Chicago car does not seem to have any rear quarter louvers or nameplate. The World's Fair car has the GTO nameplate on the rear quarter. Would be interesting to know if there is any evidence on the surviving car of the molding and nameplate holes for a Lemans.

If you view the black & white pic from the Chicago Auto Show, is there anybody that wants to swear they can or can't detect the GTO scoops on that hood?

Tom, there is the possibility that one car was used for both displays. There is also the possibility that the car was originally built as a GTO, retained the original GTO hood and engine for the Chicago show (which would explain the GTO hood in the pic when the custom interior was being installed), had a Pontiac grille nameplate (perhaps because they wanted the car to be more clearly identified as a Pontiac) and GTO nameplate holes in the fender and rear quarter filled prior to the candy apple red custom paint. Then when the car was remodified for the W.F., GTO identification went back on and the filled holes drilled back out (along with the more extensive exterior mods). Regardless of whether they were originally GTO front fenders, the W.F. car required filling of the rocker molding holes.

Since the "GTO Flamme" still exists, if ChrisP can get the Owner to cooperate, at the very least we ought to be able to determine if the World's Fair car was originally a factory GTO or not.

Not sure we'll be able to determine if it was or wasn't the same car as used in Chicago unless the Build Date is too late.

Chrisp, inquiring minds want/need to know about that Data Plate! What can you find out?

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"If you view the black & white pic from the Chicago Auto Show, is there anybody that wants to swear they can or can't detect the GTO scoops on that hood?"

Can't swear 100% but maybe 95%. I used Firefox to expand Keith S pic of the Chicago Show car and then used a large magnification glass
to look for scoop shapes, features, etc.

I see 2 "light bars" reflecting off the hood in the spots where the chrome edges of the hood scoops be located on the driver's side of the hood. Best I can do. I would vote yes on the GTO hood on the Chicago car. This would match your pic with the GTO hood on the car.

Tom Vaught

[chrisp]

Hello , well i got some pics . from him , only 1 is an original of him with the car it is in black & white , the others look like they are copies ffrom an article or something . His does have the wire style hubcaps on chrome wheels , you can also tell the redline is on the tires . I am going to send the pics . to john and let him evaluate them and he will then post . Thank you

[mfd64gto]

Originally Posted by John V.

Tom, I would love the chance to see the pix you got from Zazarine.

Here's what I know. Pontiac displayed a mildly modified Convertible at the Chicago Auto Show, from Feb. 8-16, 1964.

They called it "Flamme". Custom candy apple red paint and a matching red interior with custom leather seat covers & door panels. Wire wheel discs with thin stripe, what appear to be Red Line, Tires. No apparent GTO identification from the one known pic (wonder what the Dash Nameplate showed?). Unknown if it had a smooth hood or a factory GTO hood. Engine unknown, doesn't wear 326 fender badging in one known pic. Standard Lemans Grille with "Pontiac" Grille nameplate. Standard headlamps.

They then exhibited a more highly modified Convertible at the NY World's Fair which opened to the public on April 22, 1964.

They called it "GTO Flamme". Same candy apple red paint, same or very similar red interior, supposedly had the GTO swirled aluminum dash insert installed on the Instrument Panel although only pic I've seen shows the I.P. out of the car without the Insert installed, Zazarine's caption claiming the Insert was subsequently "reinstalled".

GTO Flamme had fiberglass hood with scoops that gave similar appearance to factory GTO hood. Had GTO Fender badging and exhaust cutouts. Custom Grille and rectangular headlamps.

Red Lines mounted on Chrome reverse wheels.

Denison claims this car had a Tri-Power engine, additional Chrome accents with big car Chrome Air Cleaner.

Tom has pic showing Fender being drilled for GTO Fender Nameplate. Suggests non-GTO Fenders.

Zazarine showed a pic of the interior ripped out while undergoing mods, car has factory GTO Hood installed.

Questions:

1. Were there two separate cars or was the World's Fair "GTO Flamme" modified from the earlier Chicago Auto Show "Flamme"?

2. If one car, was it originally a GTO or Lemans?

3. If two cars, was the World's Fair car originally a GTO?

I think there is evidence to suggest you could go either way on the 1st question.

Tom, I agree you wouldn't have to drill the holes on factory GTO fenders. And assuming the Chicago Auto Show Flamme did not sport GTO fender badges, I guess you have to conclude that the pic shows the car being modified for the World's Fair. Is the rocker molding already removed at that point and wouldn't they have had to fill holes in the fender and rocker when they did that?

But how do you explain the factory GTO hood appearing in the pic I mentioned? If the Chicago car was not a GTO, did it possibly have a GTO hood anyway? If the World's Fair car was not a GTO and made use of a fiberglass hood, what car was in the pic showing a factory GTO hood?

Also, the Chicago car does not seem to have any rear quarter louvers or nameplate. The World's Fair car has the GTO nameplate on the rear quarter. Would be interesting to know if there is any evidence on the surviving car of the molding and nameplate holes for a Lemans.

If you view the black & white pic from the Chicago Auto Show, is there anybody that wants to swear they can or can't detect the GTO scoops on that hood?

Tom, there is the possibility that one car was used for both displays. There is also the possibility that the car was originally built as a GTO, retained the original GTO hood and engine for the Chicago show (which would explain the GTO hood in the pic when the custom interior was being installed), had a Pontiac grille nameplate (perhaps because they wanted the car to be more clearly identified as a Pontiac) and GTO nameplate holes in the fender and rear quarter filled prior to the candy apple red custom paint. Then when the car was remodified for the W.F., GTO identification went back on and the filled holes drilled back out (along with the more extensive exterior mods). Regardless of whether they were originally GTO front fenders, the W.F. car required filling of the rocker molding holes.

Since the "GTO Flamme" still exists, if ChrisP can get the Owner to cooperate, at the very least we ought to be able to determine if the World's Fair car was originally a factory GTO or not.

Not sure we'll be able to determine if it was or wasn't the same car as used in Chicago unless the Build Date is too late.

Chrisp, inquiring minds want/need to know about that Data Plate! What can you find out?

John V,
I have purchased 2 NOS '64 GTO fenders and they didn't have any holes drilled in them for the installation of emblems. This is because they have application for the whole Tempest line including LeMans and GTO. I have parts books in support of this. I don't know how they handled this on the production line but I assume they used templates to drill the appropriate holes for the emblems required.
Thanks,
Mike Donovan aka mfd64gto

[gtojon]

Originally Posted by John V.

gtojon, you definitely won't have any 5 Group coding on your Fremont Data Plate, they didn't use that code system.

They coded UPCs instead. The B/U Lamps were UPC T86 but I don't believe Fremont ever coded this option on the Data Plate.

I own a Fremont GTO Pinehurst Green Convertible, 11D (date produced 11/20/63). I have documented an 11C GTO Aquamarine Convertible (date produced 11/18/63).

My Data Plate has no Accessory codes, the 11C only codes the B70 (Instrument Panel Pad). It also was highly optioned, including A/C, Auto Trans, PB.

Like mine, it was equipped with the P30 White Wall Tire Override. Wondering if your GTO got the White Walls also or Red Lines?

Yours would be the earliest Fremont GTO I have come across.

What is the Date Produced on the PHS? What Body No.?

JohnV-

Finally dug out my old PHS paperwork
The date produced on my sheet is 11/11/63, and the Body No. was a crossed a out 368, making it 366 handwritten. The tires were whitewall 75014W2R. I never knew P30 was white wall tire override, my sheet definitely has that on it. I could not figure what OVR stood for. Do you know when Fremont began production on the '64 GTO?

[John V.]

Mike, you are correct about the Service Replacement Fenders, one part no. serviced all, whether 6 cyl, 326, or GTO389, Tempest, Tempest Custom, or Lemans (with or without GTO option). The expectation was that for SR, emblem & molding holes could be field drilled as needed.

However, I do not think this was done with templates in Production. I can't be positive either, but I believe there would have been specific p/ns for each unique application and the appropriate emblem holes punched by specific die in the press. Just guessing that drilling them by hand and template would have been way too slow and the holes a lot less clean and too much chance to be "off".

Gtojon, cool. BF 366, did that match to the Data Plate? The earliest Fremont GTO (also convertible) that I have recorded was BF 426 (F005401, 11C). I collected that document because it was built just a few days before mine (also convertible, BF 450, 11D),

Your 11B is the earliest I have made note of.

However, I have always believed that mine was not especially early and that Fremont would have been building the GTO same as at Pontiac, as early as September. I had believed that for many years, long before PHS uncovered the doc. for the Sept 11 built Zone Announcement GTO. So far, have not stumbled over such an early one from Fremont, but I really haven't tried very hard to find them either.

I actually came across a PHS doc (Keith Seymore will remember this one) for a Fremont GTO Sports Coupe that was built about 1 day before my car. The PHS was altered to show the Kansas City VIN that was on the car and the Data Plate was a fake/repro. But the doc was for a real GTO built at Fremont. We were unable to learn the original Fremont VIN to match that doc, but it should have been around F005500 (BF 1748 to give an idea that Fremont was producing Lemans Sports Coupes at a ratio of about 4:1 vs. Lemans Convertibles).

For now, I will say you have the earliest Fremont GTO that has come to my attention.

But they had produced 365 Lemans converts and roughly 1600 Lemans Sports Coupes prior to when yours was produced. I just have a hard time believing that a large number of them would not have been GTOs.

The P30 option and 75014W2R Tire Code (I believe translates as 7.50x14 Whitewall, 2 ply Rayon) confirm the Whitewalls. Red lines would not show the P30 option and the Tire Code would read 75014RSW (7.50x14 Red Side Wall) on the Fremont docs. Interesting that the early Fremont GTO docs I've seen all show the P30. I wonder if Fremont did not have the Red Lines available early year or is it just coincidence that I haven't seen an early Fremont doc with the Red Lines yet?

[John V.]

Chrisp is doing a yeoman's job to flesh out the story behind the GTO Flamme.

I will start a new thread for those that want to learn more about it.

[toomanybirds]

I have the build sheet for a 64 GTO convertible that I used to own.

The VIN is 824F7769

There is no date on the build sheet, but there are some other numbers that I don't know their meaning.

If there is any interest for this thread, I can look at the build sheet for more information.

[John V.]

Do you have the PHS Shipping Manifest doc or an actual Build Sheet as found in the car or maybe a Fisher Body Trim Manifest?

I'd be very interested in seeing what ever it is you have.

F7769 was probably produced late Dec or early Jan so not as early as a few already identified from Fremont. But I'm always interested in new info.

If nothing else, I'd like to see if it shows Red Lines or Whitewalls. And compare Body Nos. to the earlier ones.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Interesting that the owner received his Flamme GTO in August 1965 which was with-in a month of when my uncle took delivery of my zone car. August of 1965 would have been basically production time for 1966 GTOs and turn-over of company vehicles for newer vehicles (at least for Ford). My car was built in the last 4 months of 64 GTO production. Does the turn-over fit with the normal GM turn-over dates, Keith?

Tom Vaught

Tom - sorry to just be getting back to your question (I've been out of town for a couple days) -

I have not been able to establish a "normal" turn over time period. The actual interval for company vehicles (what we would call PEP vehicles now) was 3000 miles back then, so it was mileage based rather than time based. However, for show and marketing vehicles it would be totally dependant on the specific vehicle and it's anticipated workload. Cars like that could be kept for one or two years beyond the applicable model year or conversely sold right after their big event.

Originally Posted by John V.

Chrisp is doing a yeoman's job to flesh out the story behind the GTO Flamme.

I will start a new thread for those that want to learn more about it.

Thanks, Chris, for finding the info and thanks, John, for pulling it together. I will be following that thread as well.

K

[toomanybirds]

Originally Posted by John V.

Do you have the PHS Shipping Manifest doc or an actual Build Sheet as found in the car or maybe a Fisher Body Trim Manifest?

I'd be very interested in seeing what ever it is you have.

F7769 was probably produced late Dec or early Jan so not as early as a few already identified from Fremont. But I'm always interested in new info.

If nothing else, I'd like to see if it shows Red Lines or Whitewalls. And compare Body Nos. to the earlier ones.

It is a build sheet found under the seat springs of the car.

At the top it says: PRODUCTION BROADCAST NOTICE BOP - FREMONT

It is torn, worn and stained, but is mostly legible.

The first box, upper left corner, can't quite read the box title, but I think it says "SCHEDULE SEQUENCE" in the box underneath are numbers "41" there may have been a number before the 4, but there is a hole in the sheet.

The second box title is "MANIFEST SEQUENCE NO." the number underneath is legible, it is "7968"

Then, MODEL 2267, COLOR V2A, TRIM 18, TOP 2, "TIRES" box is damaged, but I can make out "75014W2R, TRANS (not legible), AXLE KO, SERIAL NO. 824F007769

The rest of the options and equipment are routine appearing. It had power steering, automatic, column shift, 4 bbl (code86), power top, dlx radio, tnt windshield, cust disc wheel covers, rem. out. mirror, visor mirror, wood stg. whl.

At the bottom, a box titled "SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS" has these entries: INSERT PANEL, DECK EMBLEMS, WPR ELEC, HD FRAME, GTO OPTION, MIRROR GRP, LMP GRP

Hope that helps.

[John V.]

I don't think I've ever seen a copy of such a Fremont document for a '64.

Pretty neat.

It sounds like it is coded similar to the Manifest record you would get from PHS, the retained Manifest was the "CAR DISTRIBUTION PRODUCTION RECORD". Apparently a multi copy document, sometimes the same document will turn up with a car, only difference, it was be marked "DEALER COPY". I assume that was the actual Manifest that arrived with the car and somebody luckily kept it.

The layout of your Broadcast document is different by what you describe, I would love to have a copy if you could scan and email.

I do not know the significance of the Sequence No., meant something to Fisher Body. It will also be on the Manifest and is embossed on the Data Plate as well. Always 4 digit, I have seen from 1xxx to 9xxx, in no chronological order.

The Trans Code on yours with Auto Trans would be "SP". Axle code "KO" means it came with the standard release (for a GTO with Auto Trans, 4 bbl, and no A/C) 3.23 gear and the regular Open differential, standard brake lining.

Yours also had the P30 White Wall Tire Over-ride, still no Red Lines on early Fremont GTOs. Is this "option" not listed with the rest of the equipment? It would be listed along with other items on the Manifest. The items in the Special Instructions would also be individually listed on the Manifest, including INSERT PANEL, DECK EMBLEMS, HD FRAME, etc.

Car apparently had a lot of Options, the Lamp Group alone comprised 7 individual options.

I do not know what the no. you are reading as "SCHEDULE SEQUENCE" might represent. There is a handwritten no. on the Manifest records that may have been a Daily Production sequence no. of some sort. Don't know if it related to Fisher or the Final Line. Your "41" might be that same no. The nos. I've found on the Manifests are always 3 digit, I've seen from 165 to 960. This no. does not show up on the Data Plate, so perhaps it was the sequencing of the Body Assembly to the Final Line determined by the Final Line Scheduling Clerk. I guess if the PHS doc could be checked we could discover if there is a match to the "41".

I don't know why Fremont used the Engine Codes they did. 83 was Man Trans Tri-Power, 84 was Auto Trans Tri-Power, 85 was Man Trans 4 bbl, 86 was Auto Trans 4 bbl. These were in numerical sequence with the other Engines, example 81 was Auto Trans 2 bbl 326. Must have made sense to Fremont.

Were the options identified by the UPC coding, same as on the Manifest?

I don't have any Dec. records, but I estimate this car was produced just prior to Christmas, 1963. You didn't keep the Data Plate info?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

The layout of your Broadcast document is different by what you describe, I would love to have a copy if you could scan and email.

Or, if you could scan it and post it here that would be great, too.

(Feel free to block out any sensitive info, like key codes or the sequential portion of the VIN).

Thanks,

k

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by John V.

I don't think I've ever seen a copy of such a Fremont document for a '64.

I found the same build sheet in the rear seat springs of my car. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it for a long time. Another misplaced item, or I accidently threw it away. I hope it is the former.

[toomanybirds]

I will try to scan and post.

I have a scanner, just need help from a teenager to make it work.

[gtojon]

I am interested in the column shift. My car also is a column shift convertible. Is column shift more common than we think. This is the 2nd or 3rd one I have heard of.

[John V.]

gtojon, more common than who thinks, LOL!

The auto trans was ALWAYS column shift in the '64 A body unless you also ordered the console (and you could only order the console with bucket seats, so that pretty well limited it to the Lemans except for the extremely rare Tempest Custom Safari Wagon or 4 dr. Sedan that was special ordered with buckets).

I do not know how common the auto trans w/ console combination was in the '64 Lemans with or without the GTO Option.

But I can tell you that the auto trans without console was by no means uncommon.

Keep in mind that only about 25% of '64 GTOs got the auto trans. But I'm sure lots of them that did get the auto trans were column shift.

If you estimate 8000 '64 GTOs got auto trans, I'd guess more than half were column shift. Thousands anyway.

[Keith Seymore]

Back to the top (for discussion purposes) -

K

[MH 1964]

Mine was built at Pontiac on 10-11-63 it is a post car body number 2317, not many options according to PHS. GTO, radio, underhood lamp,dual speed wipers, tach, back-up lights, power brakes, seat belt front, posi, 3:90 gears, Transistor ignition, 4-speed. THANKS!

[MH 1964]

Back to the top, anyone else have an early GTO!