[rohrt]

Originally Posted by BOB VIDAN

Actually OMT, the Tempest vs GTO/Lemans grilles are physically different in the support structure on the backside. I always thought they were the same except paint until I learned otherwise at the nationals last summer in Portland.

Yes, I would like to see that too.

[Old Man Taylor]

I'll swear that I interchanged mine as I have both a Tempest and a GTO. I'll have to check them again to be sure.

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by Old Man Taylor

...The Tempest and the LeMans were separate models. The GTO is an option on top of the LeMans model. That's how DeLorean got the GTO past to corporate big wigs. They checked the details of each model, not the options.

Listen to OMT, he knows whereof he speaks!

In 1964 GM used an identification system that categorized vehicle lines by Series-Model-Body style. The series was usually generically labeled by the lowest (base) model in the line. Ponitac's mid-size, senior compact, or A-body series was known as the Tempest; Chevrolet's variant was the Chevelle (300); Buick called their version the Special; Olds had the F85. The base models in all of the divisions were sold with rubber floor covering, bench seats and in a limited body style pallet, usually 4-door and 2-door sedans.

Next up the Model content/feature ladder was the Tempest Custom, Malibu, Special Deluxe, F85 Deluxe. This level offered more body styles like hardtops, convertibles, and station wagons, more trim decoration, interior upgrades including floor carpeting instead of molded rubber, and the availability of optional bucket seats.

At the top of the Model heap were the LeMans, Skylark, and Cutlass. Chevy did not market a third level, but did offer the Super Sport on the Malibu as a top level trim package. These models got all the interior goodies and exterior trim as standard fare.

Back in the day, many writers referred to the GTO as a Tempest GTO. They did not understand that the model restriction of the GTO option was available on the top-of-the-line LeMans only, so the fictional Tempest GTO was born and lives on, unfortunately, to this day. I've even seen printed references to the 1967 Tempest GTO, even though the GTO was its own model by that date. Unbelievably, Pontiac, in its own original press releases, used the term Tempest GTO. Consequently, today many current bloggers and magazine writers review these old articles and releases, see the Tempest GTO id. in vintage print, then mistakenly use that label in their modern retrospective stories.

Like the mythical Unicorn, the Tempest GTO is a difficult animal to find in nature, and an even more difficult animal to kill.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Listen to OMT, he knows whereof he speaks!...

...Like the mythical Unicorn, the Tempest GTO is a difficult animal to find in nature, and an even more difficult animal to kill.

LOL! Once again, yer crackin' me up.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Like the mythical Unicorn, the Tempest GTO is a difficult animal to find in nature, and an even more difficult animal to kill.

So - does the Tempest GTO only have one horn?

K

[Dick Boneske]

The chassis manual for '64 says the second horn is optional.

Regarding "Tempest GTO"----If you want instructions for working on your 1964 GTO, you look in the 1964 Tempest Chassis Manual. If you want to work on your full-sized 1964 Catalina, Star Chief, Bonneville, or Grand Prix, you use the 1964 Pontiac Chassis Manual. When I ordered my '64 Chassis Manual in '64, there was an insert showing the differences between the GTO engine and the Tempest/LeMans V8's. The remainder of the repair instructions were the same for Tempest and LeMans. I still have that insert.

Look at my original sales order attached from 1964. I ordered a "Pontiac Tempest LeMans GTO."

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

The chassis manual for '64 says the second horn is optional.

Sorry, Dick - I was being silly.

Mythical Unicorn = one horn

Mythical Tempest GTO = ....oh, nevermind.

My obscure sense of humor doesn't necessarily translate well in writing.

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

Look at my original sales order attached from 1964. I ordered a "Pontiac Tempest LeMans GTO."

Geez. That pretty much covers it!

K

[JAKE 64]

Bob Vidan

Bob, would you kindly expand your comments on the GTO grills vs. the Tempest grills. Does this pertain only to the base Tempest?
I have a Baltimore GTO with grills attached, a Fremont GTO with grills detached, and a Pontiac, Mi. Tempest Custom with grills attached. I can see no difference between any of the grills. The fastening system is the same, although while the Baltimore and Fremont plants used the same screws by the same manufacturer, the Pontiac Plant, as I am finding typical, used different screws. Is this something I would need to have the Tempest grills removed to see?

[BOB VIDAN]

Drum roll please for remembering to respond. I have NOS Tempest grilles in my GTO, I painted them. I had a pair of NOS GTO/Lemans grilles at the nationals in Portland last summer. While taking to someone very knowledgeable, he said they are different. I said show me, he did. The Tempest grille, at least the NOS pair of my car and the one in these pictures, do not have the center brace in the middle of the grille, in the back. I can not for the life of me figure why they would be different when all the mating pieces are the same. Bet your guess would be about the same as mine, a big ??????

You can clearly see the brace in the pictures and how it is attached top and bottom. Now I'm sure someone will have a Tempest grille with the brace and really muddy up the water. Maybe there was a change after an initial production run or something like that.

[bill ryder]

OK then, SOOOO exactly where is the GTO emblem positioned in reference to this brace? We know about 1/4 panel emblem locations, but what about the grille emblem????

[3 Deuce 64]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

rohrt,

The Tempest line in '64 included the Tempest Custom, LeMans, and GTO. Many body parts were interchangeable between these Tempests. A four door model was available in the Tempest line. LeMans and GTO's were two doors--sedan, hardtop, and convertible.

The big Pontiac line in '64 included the Catalina, Star Chief, Bonneville, and Grand Prix. The Catalina and Grand Prix shared the same wheelbase and most body parts. The Star Chief and Bonneville had a longer wheelbase. There was a Ventura and a 2+2 option on the Catalina.

This would all make more sense if you could page through a 1964 Pontiac sales brochure.

**** Dick are you sure the Lemans wasn't available in a 4 dr sedan ? It was in 65 .

to answer the question above my understanding has always been :

Tempest : base car 4 dr sedan , 2 dr post , 2 dr hard top ,convertible , wagon
Lemans : up grade from the Tempest different trim package and tail panel same bodies
GTO : option on the up graded LeMans but only 3 body choices 2 dr post /hdt & Vert

from the original option brochures I have it looks like you could get the same options on the base Tempest as you could get on the up graded Lemans series . The are some things I've noticed from owning so many of these cars the most common is the base line tempests came with rubber floor covering . This was true in the sedans as well as the convertibles . Now you may have been able to up grade to regular carpeting but the original cars I've owned had here and parted out had the rubber / non carpet floor covering . in one of the cars a Tempest Custom rubber floor covering but power windows , power top , push button radio and many other options you would find in the up graded Le Mans series . I'm not really sure why the floor covering wasn't up graded maybe it wasn't available .There are others here that can answer option packages much better than I . I can only answer on what I've actually seen on the cars I've owned ( well over 100 64s ,5s , 6s and 7s )

[64woodwheel]

The 64 Tempest came in 2 door sedans, 4 door sedans, and safari wagons.
A plain jane Tempest convertible was not offered.
Standard floor covering for a Tempest was vinyl and in some cases, rubber.

The 64 Tempest Custom was available in 2 door sedans, 4 door sedans, safari wagons, and convertibles. The standard floor covering was carpet.

The 64 Lemans was initially available in 2 door sedans and convertibles. Shortly after the start of the 64 model year the 2 door hardtop became available.

[JAKE 64]

Bob:
The Tempest Custom that I own was made in March, at the Pontiac Plant. This Tempest Custom's grills are provided with the back brace. I have seen where an aluminum grill is reworked (sanded, polished, anodized, etc.) and the rivet heads to the back braces are reduced in size significantly, if not removed entirely. However, this would leave holes, and your pictures show no evidence of former holes. I vaguely recall a similar discussion on these grills some 20 years ago, but can no longer remember the outcome, if there was one.

This Tempest Custom is also provided with the same carpet found in the LeMans. The heal pad is rectangular (17 x 9 in.)

[3 Deuce 64]

I checked the tempest custom it did have carpet in it my memory is failing and I stand corrected . picture of the grills in the tempest custom . I'm going to say the are unmolested and are original . I've had the car over 30 years . pictures of the nice set of 64 GTO grills again I feel these to be original as well they've been hanging up for a long time . I've taken a lot of these cars apart but my parts are starting to thin out .

[JAKE 64]

Bill:

The GTO Grill Emblem was not impacted by the use/disuse of the back brace. In fact, the back end of the G is positioned directly adead of the back brace. The GTO Grill Emblem, as is the Tempest Custom Pontiac Emblem, utilize clips. The GTO Emblem uses three U (flat shaped) clips that fit into the second and third (from bottom) horizontal channels. The clips in turn are secured by flanged hollow nuts to the three emblem studs. The clips and nuts are black phosphate coated.

[rohrt]

great information from all. Thank you.



On to the next question.

What were the different tire/rims/hubcaps for 64? Did they all get steel wheels and an assortment of hubcaps to choose from? What rim sizes could you get?

[Keith Seymore]

Sounds like you need to buy yourself a book ...



http://www.whitehouse-graphics.com/

I think you'll find answers to most of your questions in there.

K

[JAKE 64]

Rohrt:
You may want to try your "search" function to find earlier discussions on wheels, etc. One such discussion under "Wheel Codes" was started on 10/19/10, with the last entry on 8/10/11. If I knew how to provide you with the connection to this thread I would do so, but I am just a neophite in navigating this forum. I just learned how to enter photos last week!

[bill ryder]

Like Jake 64 stated, use the search. For wheels, maybe 64+wheel+codes. Just an example> bill

[John V.]

All '64 GTOs were "supposed" to get 14x6 JK code steel wheels. These wheels may or may not have been optional for other Tempest/Tempest Custom/Lemans models but generally speaking, the non-GTO models got a 14x5 wheel.

The larger 15/16" dia. front stabilizer bar was included with the '64 GTO package, however it was also included with the optional Sales Code 612 Handling Kit, available in any Model Series, 2 dr. Body Styles ONLY. The std. '64 non-GTO got a 7/8" dia. bar.

At the beginning of the '64 Model Year, there were 2 optional Wheel Covers offered, the Custom "spinners" and the Deluxe. With either option, the wheels were always painted black.

If no Wheel Cover option was selected, the car (GTO and non-GTO alike) was equipped with the std. Hub Caps (affectionately known as "dog dishes). In this case, the wheel showed. Depending on exterior body paint color, 6 coordinating wheel colors were used. Many were painted black (such as on a Cameo White car) but other wheel colors were used as appropriate to the body color.

Fairly late in the Model Year, the Wire Disc full wheel cover option was introduced (it used Sales Code 411 which until Jan '64 was the Sales Code for the Std. Seat Belt option). This was a relatively expensive option. All year long, you could buy these discs as a dealer accessory. Owing to the fact they were introduced fairly late as a factory option and given the price, they were infrequently ordered. Since they were full wheel covers, the wheels would have been black when this option was ordered.

I never heard about the Grille difference before.

The Tempest/Tempest Custom Grilles DO carry a different p/n than the Lemans Grilles but I would have believed that was because the paint difference.

If there was a running change, I'm oblivious to it.

I do not know the origin of the grilles in my possession, but do not believe they are original to my GTO as they are unpainted, well worn, they were most likely salvaged from a Tempest or Tempest Custom by a prior owner.

But both of them have the riveted center brace.

Bob Vidan, just to be a contrarian, I would bet this is NOT a Lemans vs. Tempest difference. More likely, it either indicates a running change or a vendor difference.

I'm guessing the guy that convinced you has no evidence to support the idea that the Lemans got the brace and the Tempest/Tempest Custom did not except that the only ones he saw without the brace were on a Tempest or Tempest Custom.

It would take a lot of research of known originals to determine for sure. I'm assuming there is actual evidence of originals without braces, otherwise I could believe that Service Replacements were eventually sold that had been "cheapened" up by the deletion of the brace in the ensuing years.

Dual Horns were only Optional for the Tempest Model Series, this was Standard Equipment in the Tempest Custom & Lemans. Same for the Carpet Option.

I'll ditto Keith's book recommendation.