[bill ryder]

auction: 121005267453 NOS Power steering pressure hose. Markings would look awesome on a points car.
This is for a '64 thru '70 GTO so the description says. Gates part # 35154.

[bill ryder]

NEVER heard of this. Says it's complete with instructions. Also says for '65 tempest, lemans, GTO.
auction: 120802940416

[Tom Wood 64]

For a 1965 vehicle, dealer installed $4.80

[64woodwheel]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

I'm also sure somewhere along the line, some cars were sent out with one first design and one second design lense. Then, as we do now, the old inventory is used up as the new is introduced. bill
Does anyone have a bulletin pertaining to this part change??? Thanks

Not really a bulletin, but an inter-organization letter from G.W. Roberts to J.C. Bates dated Sept. 26, 1963. Subject: Possible Service Problems.

"3. LeMans Tail Lamps

Check wiring of LeMans tail lamps. The center and inboard bulbs are double filament and the outboard bulbs are single filament. The single filament bulb always goes behind the reflex part of the lens. Lamps are being changed at the present time to put the reflex portion of the lens toward the center of the car at which time the single filament bulb will also be changed to the inboard end."

[Joe B]

safe to assume my feb. 64 car should have the reflective section in the middle with a single filament bulb
Joe

[bill ryder]

SEEMS like someone was looking for one of these not to long ago.. NOS
auction: 200854612119

[bill ryder]

WISH I NEEDED THESE. NOS GM NOS VINTAGE SET OF GM AC DELCO BATTERY ACID FILL CAPS W/ DELCO EYE.
AUCTION; 251191450367

[bill ryder]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/67-1967-Pont...item482f0db3db
An oil filter for '67 only. I've heard bigpop talk about them, never seen one!
auction;; in case the link does not work. 310027072475

[John V.]

Originally Posted by 64woodwheel

Not really a bulletin, but an inter-organization letter from G.W. Roberts to J.C. Bates dated Sept. 26, 1963. Subject: Possible Service Problems.

"3. LeMans Tail Lamps

Check wiring of LeMans tail lamps. The center and inboard bulbs are double filament and the outboard bulbs are single filament. The single filament bulb always goes behind the reflex part of the lens. Lamps are being changed at the present time to put the reflex portion of the lens toward the center of the car at which time the single filament bulb will also be changed to the inboard end."

Originally Posted by Joe B

safe to assume my feb. 64 car should have the reflective section in the middle with a single filament bulb
Joe

Joe, not so fast.

Chad, I had to read this multiple times to "get it". Thanks for finding it.

If I am reading it correctly, and I think I am, this letter is NOT pertaining to a change in the lens!

The letter was written within weeks of the start of production.

I think what they are saying is that the early lens was going to be rotated end to end, so that the reflex (reflector) portion would go from outboard to inboard.

The single filament bulb would always go behind the reflex section. Initially, the reflex section was installed in the lamp assembly to the outboard end. As of the letter, they were rotating it to put it at the inboard end. But the lens still would have the reflex section at the end, not in the middle.

Reading that triggered a very long ago memory. I recall seeing brake or turn lights on 10 year old '64 Lemans' that seemed "wrong" as compared to the '64 GTO that I owned at the time.

My recollection is that my own had the single filament in the middle and occasionally I would see one with the double filaments side by side. I just figured somebody had installed the sockets in the wrong spots! And it looked "funny" to me to see the double filaments light up side by side since I thought it looked better to have them separated.

At the time, I would have never known about the reflex section having been moved to the middle. Or that the single filament was always supposed to be behind the reflex section. This letter explains what I remember seeing!

But unfortunately, it doesn't tell us when the reflex section was moved to the middle.

I don't know when my first GTO was built. But if my memory is correct it did have the reflex in the middle. For sure, it had the early style twin V belt setup for the Power Steering, a definite memory on that item. And I believe that got changed around Feb.

So Joe, I would guess middle reflex might be correct on a Feb car based on my memory of some near 40 year ago flimsy "evidence" from a GTO I owned back then.

Unfortunately, Chad's letter find is not the evidence you need.

Take a look at the Car & Driver Test article, first page has a rear end pic, brake lights on, double filaments side by side from what it looks like to me. Maybe somebody can tell where the reflex section is in that pic, inboard or outboard. The pic is of the Blue car I believe, it was an early build but we don't know how early, the Manifest has never turned up. Figuring out where the reflex section is might help pin down if it was built before 9/26/63 or not.

[bill ryder]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1960-66-...2ac5cf&vxp=mtr
'64 FLOOR SHIFT 4SPD B/U LIGHT SWITCH. WOW EVEN SOUNDS GOOD TO ME AND I DON'T HAVE B/U LIGHTS.
AUCTION; 221160064463

[John V.]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

NEVER heard of this. Says it's complete with instructions. Also says for '65 tempest, lemans, GTO.
auction: 120802940416

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GM-Ponti...sories&vxp=mtr

Bill, this was a Dealer Accessory Package.

If you ordered the Parking Brake Lamp as a Factory Option, the lamp was incorporated into the Speedo.

This was one example of an option that was very different when added as a Dealer Accessory Package vs. the Factory Option.

984537 was the '65 Accessory. Not sure how it may have differed in detail, but the Accessory Package for '64 carried p/n 984276.

[Joe B]

John.
Is there any way to date the lens or the box? Like I said before I have the complete passenger side tail lamp assembly with the reflective portion of the lens on the inside and a lens only with the reflective section in the middle both NOS. I also have a line on a NOS drivers side complete assembly. I do not know where the reflective section is
Joe

[bill ryder]

THANKS JOHN, Like I said, I guess I've never seen either style now. So much to learn, so little time!!!!!!!!!! bill

[John V.]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

THANKS JOHN, Like I said, I guess I've never seen either style now. So much to learn, so little time!!!!!!!!!! bill

Bill, ya got that right!

If you want to see a drawing of the factory brake lamp, check your Owners Manual, page 25. It was part of the Lamp Group package option, so a few cars had this option anyway. Sadly, my car does not.

[Joe B]

John,
I agree somewhat with you. The service bulletin seems to be discussing that the single filament goes behind the reflective section. I am not sure if they are talking about that they are changing the lens also. I think they are saying its possible to have either lens style but make sure the single filament bulb is behind the reflective section.
Joe

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Joe B

John.
Is there any way to date the lens or the box? Like I said before I have the complete passenger side tail lamp assembly with the reflective portion of the lens on the inside and a lens only with the reflective section in the middle both NOS. I also have a line on a NOS drivers side complete assembly. I do not know where the reflective section is
Joe

Joe, not that I know of. I think there should be a date on the lens but it would just denote Model Year, part of the SAE designation. Somebody taught me that trick maybe even before I cold drive. I remember looking at the lens of lots of cars to figure out the Model Year. Not sure that worked if the lens was carried over to a new Model Year, but was pretty accurate.

Haven't done this in years, but I think you will find "SAE 64" on your '64 lens.

Other than that, don't know of any dating on the lens. No idea about the box. But that wouldn't help anyway. The box could have been printed years after the car was built.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by 64woodwheel

Not really a bulletin, but an inter-organization letter from G.W. Roberts to J.C. Bates dated Sept. 26, 1963. Subject: Possible Service Problems.

"3. LeMans Tail Lamps

Check wiring of LeMans tail lamps. The center and inboard bulbs are double filament and the outboard bulbs are single filament. The single filament bulb always goes behind the reflex part of the lens. Lamps are being changed at the present time to put the reflex portion of the lens toward the center of the car at which time the single filament bulb will also be changed to the inboard end."

Originally Posted by Joe B

John,
I agree somewhat with you. The service bulletin seems to be discussing that the single filament goes behind the reflective section. I am not sure if they are talking about that they are changing the lens also. I think they are saying its possible to have either lens style but make sure the single filament bulb is behind the reflective section.
Joe

Joe, read it again.

It is not a Service Bulletin, as Chad points out, just a letter. Not sure a Service Bulletin was issued. Given the content, that would have made sense.

He is definitely saying the single filament bulb needs to go behind the reflex section.

But he never suggests the single filament bulb could be installed in the center section. I believe that is because the lens was not yet changed!

I suspect they may have been correcting a production error.

The letter is conveying the idea that Service personnel should be aware that the single filament bulb might be installed in the wrong place and should be checked to be sure it is behind the reflex section.

And that early production cars have the reflex section in the outboard section. Production was being changed presently so that the reflex section would now be "toward the center of the car".

This is what took me several reads to comprehend. He is not saying the reflex section would be in the center section of the lens. Center of the car refers to the centerline of the car, and clearly he is saying the reflex section would be at the inboard end of the lens going forward and to be sure the single filament was installed there.

I don't think it is possible to install the lens upside down (otherwise why would you need a RH & LH lens in the first place?), so the way to move the reflex section from outboard to inboard was to swap the RH lens to the left side and vice versa.

The introduction of the 2nd design lens with the reflex section in the middle must have come about later.

I think the concern of the letter was that Service personnel needed to be aware to check for the proper position of the single filament bulb to the inboard or outboard location depending on where the reflex section was.

If the 2nd style lens had already been in production at the time, surely he would have had to mention the possibility that the single filament would go to the center position of the lens, but he never says that.

I mentioned earlier that my late Nov Fremont GTO has the early lenses. Just to be sure, I checked the RH Lamp Assembly just now. The reflex section is installed to the inboard end just as the 9/26/63 letter stated it would be going forward. I didn't think to study the markings. The SAE marking was there with the "64" as I expected. The casting was marked on the back side "STDR" which I took to indicate RH side, I think the lens also had an indication for RH of some sort. The casting had a code on it that might have suggested a date but wasn't immediately obvious to me and I didn't think to write the code down. A casting date code would not really prove anything about the lens anyway.

The thing that intrigues me about that letter, it doesn't make it clear if perhaps the RH and LH lenses were being installed reversed, ie, RH lens in the LH housing & vice versa? Or is it possible to install the lens upside down in the Lamp Housing and perhaps that was the "problem"? Since it seems the lens was marked for right and left, hard to imagine they were reversing them. But I sure don't know.

In other words, how was it the reflex section was in the outboard position at the start of production? Was that intentional or a production error?

Surely others here have original lenses and could identify whether they are 1st or 2nd style and match to when the car was built. That would help you determine which is correct for your Feb car (where was yours assembled?).

As I said in the previous post, I'm inclined to think your originals would have been 2nd style. But a little more evidence would be a big help.

[Keith Seymore]

My interpretation of Chad's letter (after reading it quickly) was that the bulbs were being installed in the wrong sockets.

Then, he mentions in an "oh, by the way" type fashion, that the lens change was being worked and forthcoming; his way of saying "this will be changing yet again".

K

[64woodwheel]

Just though I'd post a pic of the letter and the magazine pics. I am not sure of Mr. Roberts position but it may have been in Reliability, given the context and inside knowledge of various production issues mentioned in the letter. Mr. Bates was the General Service Manager. This letter was cc'd to various levels of Service including a Regional Manager who's Service Information binder it was in.

[Joe B]

John,
By indicating it was a service bulletin, my mistake. It sounds like to me that GM was putting the single filament bulb in the wrong location on the lens not behind the reflective section. And if they put the left side lens on the right side and the right side lens on the left side it would not put the reflective section towards the middle of the car. Sounds like we got that correct. We still do not know when GM started with the same lens on either side. My car was built in Pontiac on Feb. 21st.
Joe