[John V.]

Originally Posted by John V.

Tom, only one p/n for the center reflex lens. The lens p/ns are in Gr. 2.682. PMD serviced the center reflex lens and also the RH & LH lenses.

The RH & LH are for the COMPLETE Tail Lamp Assemblies which include the housing and the lens, hence separate p/ns for RH & LH.

PMD did NOT service the Tail Lamp Assembly with the 1st style lens for very long although the p/ns for them probably did exist for a short time in the '64 MPC.

Tom, thanks for confirming the Plant. Did you ever get a picture of the Red car from the magazine showing it with the inboard lens?

Not sure I made this as clear as I wanted.

Should have clarified that p/ns 910761 LH and 910762 RH are the Service p/ns for the Complete Tail Lamp Assemblies which include the housing and the center reflex lens. Hence, separate p/ns for RH & LH even though both assemblies used the same center reflex lens.

[Tom Wood 64]

Ok. The picture of the red c+ d car is in a Muscle Car Review mag from march 1989. I can try and post it later tonight.

[Joe B]

Tom & John,
The part #'s for the complete taillight assembly's we agree upon is for taillights with the center reflex. My MPC is a 1970 print. Do we know what the earlier MPC's list for the taillights? It would make sense that the earlier MPC's would list the different taillight configurations. You would think but what do we know!
Joe

[64woodwheel]

I went through the 64 MPC Parts History Index and found some more information. I put it on a spread sheet by date. I don't have a lot of time right now to comment, I just want to get it up for now. Below are clickable thumbnails of my "homework". Didn't have time to photo the harness info in the catalog.

[Tom Wood 64]

Here you are.

[64woodwheel]

I was wondering why the 64 and 65 MPC's were describing the 910762 and 910761 as having the reflector on the "outboard side" or "on side". Must be an error. The 66 MPC describes them as having center reflectors.

[John V.]

Chad, wow, look how far we've come!

I also noted the apparent error on the '64 MPC page.

My guess is, the page was revised to include the new p/ns but somebody failed to either correct the explanatory note that might have existed on the previous revision of that Group listing or else misunderstood the revision.

Either way, I think it is pretty certain it should have said "Reflector in center of lens" as it does in the '66 MPC for those tail lamp assembly p/ns.

Great job! Now it seems we have all of the p/ns for all 3 style lenses and all of the tail lamp assemblies too.

The Parts History date info is important but I would caution anybody that views the dates to realize, this Parts History pertains to Service Parts disposition.

These dates would NOT precisely correspond to the dates of the changes as they took place in factory production.

It is pretty clear that Lemans' were being built with the center reflex lens before the Service Parts were entered into the MPC by dated revisions.

So we still need evidence to try to pin this down.

The main thing I get out of this was that the Roberts letter from 9/26/63 correctly pointed to a production change.

The other thing, there were apparently changes made to the harnesses to correspond to the changing reflex position.

And apparently the rear harness, at least until the center reflex was used, was different for the convertible than for the coupe. I'm not clear why, was this because the top motor wiring was part of the harness?

Anybody else compare their tail light wiring to the wiring I described from my convert many posts ago? No. of wires to each socket and color of wire?

[64woodwheel]

If you look at the numbers from October and November, notice that the Nov. revisions are very close numerically to the Oct. numbers. This tells me that all the part numbers were created at the same time.

The original Oct. part numbers are numerically higher than the Nov. revised numbers. This also suggests that the revised numbers were already in existence, as if Guide was conveying an option or responding to a request for inboard or outboard locations of the reflector.

This is why the early change took place so quickly, from the date of the letter to revision in the MPC. The parts to do it were already numbered and "in the system".

I think the two Oct. coupe harness numbers would also correspond to inboard or outboard reflex. Once the change to inboard reflex was made, you would expect one of the numbers to be used in Nov. (to follow the pattern), but there must have been some other minor change to the harness.

In the same Roberts/Bates Sept. 26, 1963 letter it is reported that "Some cars were built with no grommets on back up lamp wires where they pass through the holes in rear of body floor pan. Grommets #9775677 should be installed in holes of all cars where they are missing to prevent dust and water leakage." This was a 100% or Type I announcement. Nov-Dec '63 SCN also mentions it.

Tempest and Tempest Custom rear harness (4459281) and Tempest Custom Convertible (4459285) were also revised to these new numbers at the same time, probably to include the grommet that was missing on the original part numbers.

[Joe B]

My question is with the reflex section on my NOS assembly inboard. Does this indicate Guide/GM was using up the inventory of lenses? Or did they continue to produce different lenses?
Joe

[64woodwheel]

It would be logical to assume they would stop producing the inboard lens at the same time the center reflex replaced it. It is possible they had a surplus of inboard or outboard lenses and/or lamp assys. and continued to sell them as service replacements, but probably not many after June or July of 64 when the revise numbers where published in the MPC.

[John V.]

I'll offer a little different take on availability.

The Inboard Lens (RH and LH) remained available for Service until about 1975. These were the "bare" lenses, not preassembled into a housing. So they continued to make the inboard reflex lens (which could also have been used for outboard reflex Service if you understood the difference) and you could still purchase them for Service for many years.

From what we see listed in the MPC, by July '64, the ONLY Tail Light ASSEMBLY offered was the RH or LH with center reflex.

So they stopped selling the complete Assembly with the side lens. According to the Parts History, they stopped offering the original outboard arrangement in November '63 and they stopped offering the 2nd arrangement with inboard reflex in June '64 (LH) and July '64 (RH). Consider these dates approximate, might still have been some available in the warehouses until gone. And Dealers may have stocked some of them from earlier purchases.

Joe B, without knowing the origins of your NOS ASSEMBLY, we have no idea when it was assembled.

But chances are, it was assembled prior to July '64 after which it was probably impossible to get Guide to assemble one with the inboard lens. But they DID continue to supply the lens itself, unassembled.

Yours may have remained "in the pipeline" either at a warehouse or in a dealer's inventory before it was finally purchased at retail. Could have been years before that happened. If you knew the p/n and what you were looking for, it was probably possible to come up with an ASSEMBLY with the inboard reflex for quite some time, if not from aParts Warehouse, then surely from a Dealer somewhere in the country.

Point is, just because PMD discontinued the part does not mean that immediately you could not find and purchase it.

Came across the attached pic. From the GM photo archives. It was from the Fremont Plant. Unfortunately, does not provide a date.

Look at the reflection in the mirror above the Lemans. You can see the brake lights lit with the "split" arrangement indicating a center reflex. Doesn't add any insight to this discussion without knowing the date the pic was snapped but thought it was cool to see anyway.

[Joe B]

I would venture to say that my taillight assembly was produced prior to the change (wish we knew the part #) and someone either at the warehouse or dealer wrote the new part # on the box. So they new what they had and what it would go to. This probably was done shortly after the new part # came out.
Joe

[John V.]

Joe B, we DO know the Service p/n!

That is what Chad came up with from the Parts History.

The RH Tail Light Assembly with Inboard Reflex Lens is p/n 910410.

It was superseded in the MPC by p/n 910762 (with center reflex lens) in July '64.

[Joe B]

John,
if thats the case, is it safe to assume that my NOS taillight assembly had the part #910410 and thats why the #910762 was written on the box, so "whoever" could use that part and use up existing inventory.
Joe

[Jake64]

Joe B.
Just trying to get up to speed, and therefor only have skimmed this post, and may be out of line in not studying it completely before commenting.
However, if you are trying to identify the lenses you have, you should be able to do so by looking at the back side, lower edge of the lense. I pulled a couple of my own that were in my stockpile. For the early type, the Guide STD..... is located in the center section of the lens when observed from the rear. Flipping the lens end to end, the part number will be located on the lower, leading edge, on the right side of the center section.
For the final type, although the Guide STD..... has been located to the leftmost section when observed from the rear, when flipping the lens end to end, the part number remains on the lower, leading edge, but is now on the left side of the center section.

Although the embossed numbers are minute, and difficult to identify, both my wife and I came up with the same numbers, none of which I have observed in previous posts.
The early left side lens is embossed 5955623.
The later style is embossed 5956249 2.

[Joe B]

Jake,
I think it was determined that the center reflex section in the middle of the lens is the 2nd design and later. I think the discussion was about the 1st design with the reflex section on the side. Should it be outboard or inboard, As soon as my NOS left taillight arrives.I will post the info
Joe

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Wood 64

Here you are.

Day ? crack in pass. side lens ...