[RA1John]

The BH is a valuable piece of information that the serious enthusiast cannot do without.
PMD stopped giving them away for free a long time ago.. along comes a business opportunity: PHS.

Very nice business model..

Access to rare cars (yes, when I requested BH, I was called and asked if I wanted to sell my RAI 'Bird).

Able to re-sell the same BH over & over again because people can easily alter the cheap photo copy. Why offer a document with hologram or some taper-proof feature when instead, you can keep re-selling the same piece of paper?

Heck, even baseball card companies have put holograms on cards for years.

[63Banshee]

"Without PHS there would be a ton of these, a ton of those..." There already are! As there are more '67 435 horse Vettes today then in 1967, yet the values sky high and documentation exists for many of the real cars. Besides that, faking PHS docs is a hell of a lot easier to do than faking the car.

I like the idea of PHS. I have placed many orders. Now I pay more for less and the decoding is wrong (64 GTO Baltimore car), which makes the decode paperwork worthless and I'm stuck with the headache of explaining this to low-information buyers. There is a way to right this wrong. We'll see if PHS steps up...

[muscle_collector]

I am amazed that someone / anyone could complain about a measly 65.00 to prove without a doubt what your car actually is. I guarantee you that if this service was offered on Chevrolet or mopars that most people would gladly pay 3 times this amount. my goodness, I spend more than that everytime I pull into a gas station. but I learned a long time ago that some people will complain about things given to them for free.

[Held for Ransom]

Why not pay tier pricing too? A rarer car would have to pay double or triple the base price, based on market collectabilty. That would be the deal killer for me. Now, I am just more careful on what docs I pay for, which means Jim gets less of my money.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

I am amazed that someone / anyone could complain about a measly 65.00 to prove without a doubt what your car actually is. I guarantee you that if this service was offered on Chevrolet or mopars that most people would gladly pay 3 times this amount. my goodness, I spend more than that everytime I pull into a gas station. but I learned a long time ago that some people will complain about things given to them for free.

You don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

Why not pay tier pricing too? A rarer car would have to pay double or triple the base price, based on market collectabilty. That would be the deal killer for me. Now, I am just more careful on what docs I pay for, which means Jim gets less of my money.

Biggest issue I have is paying for false information then having to explain that information to numbnuts.

[Held for Ransom]

I hear exactly what you're trying to convey. Maybe Jim didn't do that one. Hard to believe he doesn't send a disclaimer if he knows the info. MAY be erroneous.

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

I hear exactly what you're trying to convey. Maybe Jim didn't do that one. Hard to believe he doesn't send a disclaimer if he knows the info. MAY be erroneous.

I have faith the situation will be rectified and advice, like you offered, will be heeded. Should know before the end of next week.

[ron cozzo]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

"Without PHS there would be a ton of these, a ton of those..." There already are! As there are more '67 435 horse Vettes today then in 1967, yet the values sky high and documentation exists for many of the real cars. Besides that, faking PHS docs is a hell of a lot easier to do than faking the car.

I like the idea of PHS. I have placed many orders. Now I pay more for less and the decoding is wrong (64 GTO Baltimore car), which makes the decode paperwork worthless and I'm stuck with the headache of explaining this to low-information buyers. There is a way to right this wrong. We'll see if PHS steps up...

I agree 100%. The 64 KC and BAL cars should be treated differently by PHS. They should at least acknowledge they don't know how to decode them rather than sending out false information, which we then have to debunk. There is value in the billing history, especially when the POP Imprint is included. Ideally they would make some agreement with John V. to use his info as a starting point, and with their volume of info, they could fill in some of the blanks in his decode.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

You don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

really how do you figure that

[27jalopy]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

Too funny.

I understand that some of the 65 fremont data was desytroyed in a fire or flood or has otherwise gone missing.

i've watched the price of the service go up over the years.


I also understand that the "owner" of the data was caught up in a law suit with GM because GM wanted the materials back and intended to destroy it, The claim was that it still belong to GM, whereas the courts determined that the material once desposed of by GM was no longer thier property to control. Sort of along the lines of when you put your garbage out on the street for removal its no longer yours .

anyway, that must have cost him some money to deffend, And lets face it, the value of a dollar does not buy as much over the last 10-15 years either.

I am greatfull the documentation exists'. its kind of scarry looking at whats going on with the corvette hobby and all the big blocks 65-67's still coming off the assembly line. really, its only that one sheet of info that confirms authenticity that counts, worth its weight in gold when the stakes are high. and some of the BS that people are pulling in the Pontiac hobby, We should be greatfull that somebody had the insight to save it all.

I for one am greatfull concidering what shenanigans people are pulling. after all there are only 23 of those origonal 8 dual quad 65 GTO's still in existance. thier authenticity must be preserved.

I didn't know that! I think I'll complain less about the higher price...

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

I hear exactly what you're trying to convey. Maybe Jim didn't do that one. Hard to believe he doesn't send a disclaimer if he knows the info. MAY be erroneous.

Not a matter of "Jim doing that one". Jim's records and codes are WRONG for Baltimore, KC, and Fremont CA cars. People in the know have understood this for years. JIM knows this too but if you are willing to send him $65 he will pass on some info, right or wrong.
BUYER BEWARE is the word.

Just like Pete McCarthy (and YEAR 1) saying years ago, if it doesn't have a 5N on the data plate (NOT A GTO). So a guy with a very nice BALTIMORE GTO sells his car labeled as a clone, vs the real deal due to bad info from the experts.

I like Jim, have known him for years.

When GM walked away from PHS they threw all of the records in a dumpster so there would be no PHS stuff TODAY if Jim had not climbed in the dumpster and pulled some of the records out. That is why some of the records are now "missing". Not enough time to save them all.

So what you get from him is better than it all being gone.

Tom Vaught

[63Banshee]

I couldn't have made it easier on Jim. Simply requested unhighlighted option sheets and a statement indicating PHS is unable to correctly decode Pontiacs built at the Baltimore Plant for the 1964 model year. No response. Maybe later in the week?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 27jalopy

I didn't know that! I think I'll complain less about the higher price...

I wrote up a little "Pre-history" of PHS a few years ago, which I believe is self explanatory. This was first captured in an email to author/illustrator Eric White (gtoric on this site). I had Fred Simmonds trapped in the passenger seat during a long ride so I grilled him all the way there.

I haven't reviewed this Jim Mattison or PHS; Jim - if you happen to see this feel free to make any corrections or clarifications.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[PMD1969]

No opinion, simply posting what I found.

From the website classicalpontiac.com

<snip>

Classical Pontiac 1999 POCI National Convention
Jim Mattison and Pontiac Historical Services

Although I kept myself from getting too excited about the prospect, in the back of my mind the highlight of my convention trip was going to be a tour of Pontiac Historical Services (PHS) given by none other than Jim Mattison. While I had known of Jim for years it wasn't until Classical Pontiac became popular that I met him personally, at first through email exchange and eventually face to face at last year's Trans Am Nationals. If the Pontiac hobby can be said to have celebrities Jim must certainly be counted as one, so I was quite happy that my efforts with my website had facilitated our meeting. Practically every time he wrote to me he graciously made the offer "if there's anything I can ever to for you let me know" and until this summer I had never tried to cash in. While making our plans for Buffalo we discovered that our financial friend Southwest Airlines doesn't fly there. Whipping out my well-worn road atlas the natural choice was to fly into Detroit, the automotive motherland, see what damage we could do there then drive through Canada for the show. Naturally the next thought I had was a possible meeting with Jim.

If you're like me there's always been a bit of mystery surrounding Jim. He seemed to almost come from nowhere to become the torch bearer of Pontiac history. In addition he obviously has some close ties with current production as he often tours with the latest cool hardware from the assembly line. From following the magazines I also knew that he had his own collection of cars to be proud of. How big of an operation is PHS? What are his ties to Pontiac? How did he get the dream job of traveling with the Banshee and countless other significant cars? Where can I apply as apprentice? After a series of messages and phone calls it looked as if I might find out some of the answers.

So why all the doubt? It turned out that the GTOAA's meet was the week prior to the POCI convention. Jim was only going to be in town Monday between those official appearances and he also hoped to spend at least some time at a Packard show Monday evening and Tuesday. Although I could hardly bring myself to say it I kept telling him that we could arrange a meeting some other time. Several other factors contributed to the scheduling difficulties: Monday was a holiday, GM had begun a two week planned shutdown, Jim had to switch vehicles between the Packard show and Buffalo, I'm pretty sure Jupiter wasn't aligned with Mars. Well as you obviously know by now we pulled it off, or I should say he pulled it off. We met at his location and he proceeded to fill us in on PHS, Pontiac, and some of his other endeavors. Next we were given a peak at about half of Pontiac's vehicle collection, the other half stored elsewhere and because of the shut down unavailable. Finally we had a chance to just spend time with Jim and get to know him a little better. As a matter of fact by the time we made it to the nationals I felt like we were comrades in arms.

The first thing I want to share with everyone is that while PHS is a first class operation, it, like Classical Pontiac is to me, is a labor of love. The return from that portion of his business ventures is perhaps just a break even. I've agreed to not share the particulars as it really is no one else's business, but what is important is that he likes our hobby enough to keep the all important factory records under his wing. Actually throughout the tour that was a common thread: countless pieces of Pontiac history, both large and small, given to Jim as caretaker (or in many cases saved from the trash bin by him). Like what you ask - like the 20th Anniversary T/A turbo motor cutaway, the 1961 Motor Trend Car of the Year award for the Tempest, like several limited addition pewter statues commemorating significant developments at Pontiac, like racing helmets and crate motors, like pace car hoods, and most important of all the collection of cars sitting in silence safely covered just a few feet from his office.

So what is PHS? It is a single room filed with file cabinets, a microfilm machine, a copy machine, a fax, a few desks, and a fair amount of memorabilia. What was I most jealous of? Jim's desk chair fashioned from a leather GTA seat. Jim took the copy of the factory invoice I received from Pontiac almost 13 years ago and showed me the painful steps it takes to research a car. It's not a simple matter of looking up the VIN, first you have to select the film that lists the VIN along with the invoice number. Put it in the machine, scan through and locate the VIN. Having written the invoice number down it's back to the cabinet for another film, scan through it looking for that number then make a few test copies adjusting exposure until you have an acceptable duplicate (which was MUCH nicer than that that I received from Pontiac). As if that wasn't enough of a pain, depending on the format of the invoice the area framed for copying has to be adjusted. Invoice in hand a trip to another row of cabinets for related documentation such as factory photo and production figures then finally over to the opposite end of the room to collect the various standard sheets sent with each packet and fill the envelope and your ready to go. I guess that doesn't sound too bad for $35 until you factor in the overhead for the expensive machinery involved, the credit card surcharge, postage, and then the royalty paid to Pontiac for every packet processed and the businessman in me sees where yes, this has to be a labor of love.

Now's probably a good time to address the question that comes up all the time on the Q & A: "How can I quickly document my Pontiac?" While traditionally you mail a check to PHS and wait anxiously for your packet, the quick answer is to fax the request form with your credit card information to them. They get the fax right away, and since the payment is by credit card there's no time lost waiting for a check to be processed. For an additional $5 ($40 total) they will fax the invoice copy to you before mailing the complete packet out. It doesn't get any better than that. Understandably there are no plans to open a voice line for orders (given my experience with email questions I can just imagine what Jim would get over the phone).

Now for the history lesson. Shortly after I learned about Pontiac providing copies of factory invoices in 1986 (and did my best to get the word out in our chapter newsletter) they became swamped with requests. They were extremely close to shutting the whole operation down when Jim stepped in, and after the corporate lawyers had their say he acquired the files and started PHS. As the years passed GM identified Jim as the Pontiac history guy and hence every item looking for a home gets sent his way. Pontiac also entrusted him with the car collection and allows him to determine which cars go to which shows throughout the year. Hardly a money making business, he is given a modest budget which is scrutinized at the beginning of each season. Perhaps most fun of all is Jim's involvement with Pontiac's brand team. Once again I can't give many details, but count the 30th T/A as one of the many projects he has been a part of.

That about covers all of those questions except for that apprentice job. All I can say is that each of my thinly veiled offers to road test the Pontiac historic fleet was met with silence and a knowing smile. We wrapped up our tour with lunch and shared war stories about our respective Pontiac experiences. While I was ecstatic about the success of my meeting with Jim he was practically apologetic about not being able to do more. "What more could there be?" I thought, then he told me a couple of things...all I can say is hopefully we'll have more time the next trip to Michigan! Thanks for your hospitality, Jim, the Pontiac hobby is fortunate to have you.

OK, enough of this yakking, take me to the cars!

http://www.classicalpontiac.com/arti...9poci/phs.html

[bluebird455]

63Banshee, I feel for you, I got the PHS for my sd455 12 years ago at a lower price, and it was still a rip-off! nothing but unreadable papers, junk info and trash. I was angry enough to send an email to complaint about the poor quality of the documents, and asked for a refund, He agreed that the documents were of poor quality and unreadable, but his response was "too bad, you got what you got, nothing I can do about it". Total jerk! The guy is nothing but unprofessional low life!

[68gtoMN]

For all who complain about the service being offered, I proffer that you have unrealistic expectations. It would appear that the expectation of complete and perfect information exists and should be available in real time. Well, that's not a valid assumption. As has been explained above (two PHS history pieces), this was not a business venture that was planned from the beginning; rather, it was a confluence of circumstance and a passion for the hobby. Had it been known that events at Pontiac would conspire to TOSS OUT the historical files, then planning might have been able to prevent it. As things stand, what was saved is what Jim has to work with.

There are mentions of expenses, machines and lawsuits. I know, in having spoken with Jim on this subject, that he was subject to lawsuits from GM that cost him a small fortune to defend, was harassed and that attempts were made to "repossess" the records forcibly. Again, we are fortunate that he persevered and fought all attempts. He was finally declared the victor.

For all who whine about the cost, you need some basic lessons in economics, time value of money and opportunity cost. To be factual, one needs to look at an index of the dollar's value based on a given year and then compare that amount to the value of today's dollar (inflation/deflation). According to one calculator here, the value of $35 in 1980 is $83.67 in 2013. Using another calculator, the same $35 is pegged at $104 today. Either way, the real cost for services rendered is less today than it was when these packets were priced MUCH lower in years past.

Understand that with the advent of computers and the internet, microfiche machines are no longer mass produced and have become expensive to repair/maintain. The work is labor intensive. There are real costs.

All of this is presented as "the other side of the argument" when discussing a "business model". To complain about cost increases without understanding the underlying factors that affect pricing models is ignorant at best. What about staff costs? What about insurance? What about rent for the space? Machine repairs? Copier costs?

Now, consider how technology might have been employed to better this service and the pitfalls that employing new technology might add. Put on your business owner hat here - imagine that YOU own PHS...

With the "old" methods of using microfiche, paper copies and faxes, there exists only one copy of the records requested by any individual. They are paid for by one person and delivered to one person. They are not easily shared. To obtain information on a particular car, each person must pay. The value of the information remains intact.

Were one to consider digitizing this information (a colossal undertaking - conversion, error correction, indexing, user interface development, database development, storage, backup...), this effort would require a full-time staff and would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. With this digitizing, there would now be more than one copy of the information and the issue of control/security/permissions is now a real concern. With computers, one owns a "manufacturing facility" where all data can be replicated and easily shared with countless people. Once "published" in digital fashion, the information could be accessible by untold numbers of people. At this point, as the business owner, you no longer control the means of production/distribution of your product (information) and, subsequently, the value of your product erodes quickly.

Is this a PERFECT service? Not even close. Could Jim improve his service? I believe so. Should he update his process to include disclaimers about early GTOs built at certain plants? Perhaps yes. There is always room for improvement. But remember, this is a valuable service that other hobbyists would die for. We are a bit spoiled when we complain about the cost because the "real costs", based on value of $$ over time, are well below market value and cost less today (in comparative terms) to the $35 we used to pay, etc.

This is just one guy's opinion. Feel free to disagree with me.

[63Banshee]

You first say there are those with unrealistic expectations then you conclude by supporting expectations previously expressed by the same.

"But remember, this is a valuable service that other hobbyists would die for." Lets come down to Earth.

[bluebird455]

I paid $35 bucks for it, I think. Perfect documents I did not expect, but what I got was not even readable/usable in any way, shape or form, He even agreed. The web site did not have any warnings or notices relating to poor quality docs due to age, limited sources or such. It becomes an issue of Honesty! And, if Passion for the Hobby was one of the reasons to offered it, then He should stand behind his service 100%, and not act like a total greedy jerk instead.

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by 63Banshee

You first say there are those with unrealistic expectations then you conclude by supporting expectations previously expressed by the same.

"But remember, this is a valuable service that other hobbyists would die for." Lets come down to Earth.

The unrealistic expectations are, as outlined by me, perfect information, complete information, instant response, etc... This does not exist as not all documents are retained (some were destroyed), some documentation does not provide the information requested (pontiac documents, that is) and the method for providing information does not lend itself to the speed to which we have been made accustomed with the age of "the internet".

There is room for improvement in nearly any endeavor. I stated as much below. If one expects perfect copies from decades old technology (microfiche readers/printers), then the expectations are too high in that regard. If the information is not available for option decoding, then I would suggest that PHS modifies what it delivers assuming that the decoding can't be completed. Perhaps a disclaimer. Again, I stated as much.

Merely complaining about something without understanding context is nearly fruitless. Perhaps YOU can put together some constructive solutions for Jim and correspond with him directly instead. I would think that this would be a useful pursuit.

Good luck!