[War eagle]

You are right John, I skipped right over 969.

I know that Mickeys son is head of everything now. Not sure if MT Enterprises is part of something else or not. Butler has been sending me stuff to build 500 plus cube using 400`s and 455`s. Way out of my league but knowing their efforts and a few aftermarket Pontiac blocks are out there, is cool. Those large cube engines are not gone even though the rice burners etc are doing some astonishing things. Even if a Camaro based GTO was being made right now, I think it would be fairly pricey to get the big gun option. NOT like the good ol days when a basic job got you into a new hot car. The new Camaro sucks with that ugly grin of the hood and grille. A GTO (or firebird) front would have had to been better without much effort.

[Old Goat Racer]

Here's a copy of my Aug 66 MPC. for comparison

In Dec. 64 I destroyed the engine in my 59 Cat. With no garage to work in, I purchased a new short block from GM. and had it installed at a chebby dealer. That car kept me broke.

[War eagle]

Originally Posted by War eagle

John. There is absolutely NO markings of any kind. I agree, I would have thought all were marked SR but there is nothing. And a quick inspection shows no indication of the face being milled. Original broach marks. I think I am more interested in how long the 155 was produced. The SR would only be important AFTER the block was installed. Something other than the cast number to tell me WHAT THIS BLOCK may fit would be more helpful. (example 326 block vs. 389) or (2bolt vs 4bolt without counting or 421 vs 389 without measuring).

I guess if someone could turn up a later than the L 3 5 date, possibly with a 1966 date, it would help confirm an extention of casting the 155. Does anyone know the warrentee parameters of a 1964 Pontiac? Like miles or years?

Opps. More intensive cleaning did bring up SR 807717
L 3 5 cast date 9773155

[John V.]

Glad you found it.

Unless you fat fingered the digits, that is the first 6 digit SR no. I think I've heard of.

Too bad, I was hoping it would be similar to the one I posted, SR85608.

They all consistently have the 1st digit 8 but can't make sense of the rest of it.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

The closest the car ever got to "Pontiac Engineering" was 3 miles from the assembly line. I asked him at Omaha if he had done the swap at Royal and he nodded and winked.

Going by what I was told, as well - wink-free, though ...

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

I recall Tenney had a conversation at a Concours event with a guy who worked for PMD Engineering and remembered the car. I can't recall the details. I'm sure Tenney can fill it in.

Yes, John, I met a fellow at Meadow Brook who said he worked in engineering and recalled the car, though did none of the work on it.

[War eagle]

Wangers nodded and winked BEFORE his book came out. Get a copy and read it. That CAR NEVER EVER WAS CLOSE TO PONTIAC ENGINEERING.

Tenny why not offer up this "guy" you met for some cross exaimination---Otherwise I absolutely marginalize this contribution and will add it to the "finding bigfoot" legitimacy.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Yes, John, I met a fellow at Meadow Brook who said he worked in engineering and recalled the car, though did none of the work on it.

Anything is possible War Eagle.

"a fellow at Meadow Brook who said he worked in engineering and recalled the car"

I am sure there are Hundreds of Engineers at Ford who remember our Red 'Squeeky'
4.6L Supercharged 700 HP "Mule" that was used for the 2004 'Terminator' (Supercharged Mustang) program too.

Very few of them would actually know any of the REAL HISTORY on the car, how it was built, etc so to call the Engineer (who spoke with Tenny about Wanger's Red GTO) a Liar is a bit much. All the guy said was that he remembered the car, PERIOD. Everything that YOU know about the car is based on Internet comments or Wanger's Book (written many years after the fact). Just saying.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

Very true Tom. It is just that we can "in real time" talk with Wangers. We know he exists. . Not so easy with a nameless self described engineer.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

That CAR NEVER EVER WAS CLOSE TO PONTIAC ENGINEERING.

Okay, it wasn't.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by War eagle

Very true Tom. It is just that we can "in real time" talk with Wangers. We know he exists. . Not so easy with a nameless self described engineer.

You are talking about the "Master of 12th Street", War Eagle. 12th Street WAS "the place" for the "LARGE" $$$$$ races in Detroit, years after Woodward was over.

You are talking about "The Magician", the guy would look you right in the eye, say the engine would make 600 HP and make 750 HP. And, go home with your money!

So I would smile and take ANYTHING that Jim Wangers says with a grain of salt as there is always a reason WHY he says something.

JMT

Tom V.

ps The engine WILL make 600 HP on its way to 750 HP, so it is not really a fib.

[War eagle]

Tom of course your right.

[Tom Vaught]

I will give you one other example:

David E Davis: So what engine do you have in the Red Car and the Blue Car?

Wangers: The Blue Car came with......., The Red car CAME WITH the 389 Tri-Power Engine. The man did not ask "What engine is in the car right now Jim"

Tom V.

[War eagle]

Tom you recently posted the "Cars Magazine article" that I have also. You knew the 421 without seeing the pyramid. Those pics and some additional shots in another magazine, that clearly shows the pyramid, have intrigued me for a couple other reasons.
Number 1 it shows the 421 without the heads. If Pontiac had been involved, I think pictures would have been out of the question...and Wangers knew it!! If the story of the Men In Black retrieving the broken 421 was real, then there wasn`t much cloak and dagger in the Cars Magazine article.
Number 2. Look at those valve chambers Tom. I can`t quite put my finger on it but the lack of carbon soot is interesting. The block also shows little build up on the slugs. Was this a complete 421 and then tore down to do the BobCat? This would mean the 421 WAS run shortly THEN tore down.(A scratch built 421 from a partial assy using the original GTO heads?) This would mean the 421 was run. Or would this indicate a complete engine from somewhere was installed then the heads pulled? Either way something is underfoot in that magazine timeline. Something there and I still can`t figure out why the bobcat wasn`t done as they originally assembled it? These headless pics are telling us something more.

Again and off subject, but a "spun" bearing doesn`t mean the engine was wasted. The 421 could have only a rod brg spun and with a crank grind or maybe only a polish, a new rod, bearing and gaskets would have ya back in business. Sometimes worse does happen and the need of a new block required. We don`t know here.

[Tom Vaught]

Maybe someone has the date of the Car and Driver Magazine publish date.
Then if you backed up 3 months you would have a point where the cars were tested in Florida.

The Cars Magazine test was I believe a March issue date but that would make the normal timeline for taking pictures in the dead of Winter (December time frame).
The cars article shows no snow on the ground and just chilly weather.

No reason to do a shoot-out in Florida when Car and Driver was located in Michigan and the test could have been run at the GM Milford Proving Ground (IF the test could have been run before winter in Michigan).

So your question about a repair of the broken 421 Engine from Florida does not fit the timeline. I think they were BUILDING the "cars" when those pics were shown.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

Actually Tom I was NOT trying to hook the broken 421 with the picture or its date. Just making a point about "spun Bearings" not always killing a block.
The point was that something can be learned from that headless 421 in the pics. Not sure what. Not much carbon on the pistons.....but some. Why?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Maybe someone has the date of the Car and Driver Magazine publish date.
Then if you backed up 3 months you would have a point where the cars were tested in Florida.

March of 1964.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

I really think everyone should pick up a copy of Jim's book. It is well written and clears up a number of items.

I think most of us are familiar with Mr Wangers’ book. It also serves to add a bunch of confusion to a number of items.

I’m not sure why there is so much emotion around this particular topic. This is the same gentleman that for nearly 40 years VEHEMENTLY DENIED he did anything untoward relative to the two Car&Driver test vehicles. And then, quite suddenly flipped and rather sheepishly admitted, in almost an offhand way, that he did set them up.

It should come as no surprise that he would say one thing while winking to a random stranger at a car show, and then something totally different to the man who actually owns the car. He’s shown that he’s willing to twist a story to suit his purposes at the moment, which normally is the promotion of his favorite product.

I would suspect Tenney has had more time sitting with Mr Wangers and listening to stories than all the rest of us combined, and probably knows a thing or two that will never be made public.

Tenney has the car, the history and the documentation. One must choose if they are to believe the paperwork or rather a man who, by profession and predestination, makes his living selling things.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

I absolutely believe Jim meant what he said. I PUT THE 421 IN!!! He wrenched on the cars ROYAL raced as well as other fellos at Royal. This probably was an after hours deal with Ace Wilson agreement.

I think you misinterpret his intent.

I never saw a wrench in Mr Wangers hand, not at Royal nor at the racetrack. As a contracted salaried resource to GM he wore a suit to work every day and delegated the dirty work. He normally was off making speeches and business presentations while the mechanical work was getting done.

He is saying “Yes – I AUTHORIZED that work to be done”. He gave the verbal direction (or wrote a paper work ticket) and Schornack, Rediker, Brumfield and the other mechanics at Royal did the physical work, just like always.

It’s just like if I said “Yes – I put that ZL1 engine in the shortbox pickup at Milford”. What that means is I wrote the work ticket, I went home and went to bed, and when I came in the next day it was ready for me to test drive.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by War eagle

The closest the car ever got to "Pontiac Engineering" was 3 miles from the assembly line.

Originally Posted by War eagle

Wangers nodded and winked BEFORE his book came out. Get a copy and read it. That CAR NEVER EVER WAS CLOSE TO PONTIAC ENGINEERING.

The Engineering building and Final assembly were co-located and separated by about 300 yards.

K

(map courtesy of Eric White's "Made in Pontiac" series)