[Diego]

Would love to learn more. And, over time, I'll post more that I've discovered for these cars.

I've also contacted Fred Simmonds about some questions I have.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by 65WJ

"Well we are waiting"

Judge Smails.

If you have anything on the 65 HO motor breakdown that would be totally cool.

patrick

i found a stack of papers he gave me back then. here are a few pics

[muscle_collector]

here are a few more. the last one shows how thick that the stack he gave me is.

[Diego]

I have all of those except the SD stuff, I think, and I did skip the 1962-64 files so it makes sense that I didn't pick it up.

You have no 428 HO (other than the 2+2) or 421 stuff, do you?

With the side view of all the papers, it's quite surprising how much you have. I didn't think it would be that thick?

On another note, I sent an email to Fred Simmonds about the GP ragtop HO numbers and he agreed with me that there initially was a typo.

Thanks for posting!

[muscle_collector]

i really dont know what all is in there, i just kinda scattered a few around for the pics. i originally was asking about figures on a 67 gp 428 HO convert, a 67 catalina 428HO 4 speed, and a couple of my 72 455HO lemans and he said he would send me all of the info that he had so far. i had never seen the gto paint breakdown page until today, so i might be surprised as to what all is in there.

[ITSBACK]

This is a very interesting thread because I was just getting on to start a thread about something very similiar. I have a WJ code 428HO which is a 4 speed motor and was just talking to a friend about it and wondering how many 4 speed big cars could there have actually been. According to Diegos paper work not too many for 1967, I guess I have something that is pretty rare. So how many 428HO WJ motors were there? Mine is a very early date code, it looks like H296, the H almost looks like an M so it must be an H.

[Diego]

Muscle_Collector, when you have time, I would love to see you list an inventory of what you have.

The 1970 GTO colors have been known for a long time, even appearing in several books. However, it doesn't take into account special-order colors so I dunno.

[muscle_collector]

unfortunately, when i was given this stuff, i gave my word that i would not publish it or pass it out to anyone. i dont go back on my word. so i cant put pictures/copies of it out.

[Diego]

But you can't list the inventory? That's all I'm asking.

[muscle_collector]

i gave my word not to divulge the info. i will only speak for myself, but when i give my word, it is gold and i keep it.

[70ra455]

Fred gave Diego information, Fred gave Muscle-Collector information. Fred gave others information ... but he told Muscle-Collector NOT to publish it or make it known? What possible reason could he have given? Doesn't even sound plausible.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with him ... maybe we could ask him to publish these documents or allow someone else to publish them. From everything I heard about him, Fred has spent loads of time gathering info for the precise purpose of sharing that info.

[muscle_collector]

he gave me the info back in 90 or 91 we are talking 20 years ago. he didnt put a time limit on what he asked me so unless he tells me that it is ok, i cant go against my word.

[PB]

I have a WG 428 manual motor I pulled out of a 67 2+2...not HO, but cool to see how few were made.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Fred has with held vin numbers and information or asked things not to be published. Because he knows of a few "Bogus" cars out there and people are trying to pass off as real rare cars! ie. a '62 or '63 SD Catalina or one of the 8 '69 T/A convertibles vins. All numbers have been published but a "missing" one or a published number may not be correct. This way if some one comes up with a claim with the "wrong" vin Fred and a few others will know.

By the way, the 8th T/A convertible is not missing. All of them left the factory as Ram Air III's but one took a side trip to engineering for a Ram Air IV convertion before being delivered. This is not the "missing" one either.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

Fred gave Diego information, Fred gave Muscle-Collector information. Fred gave others information ... but he told Muscle-Collector NOT to publish it or make it known? What possible reason could he have given? Doesn't even sound plausible.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with him ... maybe we could ask him to publish these documents or allow someone else to publish them. From everything I heard about him, Fred has spent loads of time gathering info for the precise purpose of sharing that info.

I can't tell you what Fred has said to Muscle_collector, but when I stumbled upon some of this stuff earlier in the decade, I was asked to keep it to myself. Then, when people started posting it on the Internet, I relaxed a bit . . . but still kept my word.

Fred himself doesn't own the information - he merely spent the time with documents that he found. I don't know the whole story but I will ask him because I tracked him down (thanks, POCI!) and asked him about the 2+2 doc since the Grand Prix number didn't jibe with the memo that I found in the same file. As it ended up, he had a typo, and that's why I made the addendum (M_C, you should update yours with a note!).

I don't think there's anything subversive about it other than making sure misinformation does not spread, as people can get crafty with how they see numbers (happens all the time with Mopars). I know when I see numbers quoted in magazines, eBay, CL, etc., it's usually done with creative license, and that promotes misinformation that will be quoted by someone else. That's just a guess why they were not distributed to the hobbyist before, but it also was done before the Internet.

So, in the case of the document I've posted, since I know some of these charts have been floating around the Internet, I asked my contact about posting the 2+2 doc because no one has known how many ragtops were built. He gave me the green light. Any other bit of information I've gathered, I'm happy to share but I cannot post the original doc - it's not my property, and I have to be careful that I know what I'm doing because, for example, I could always say 150 Tempest 395-A motors were built in 1958, but the document only goes up to May '58, so what good is that when it's not reflective of a full model year? I don't want to be the one responsible discovering a good thing, only to realize I've been the one creating misinformation! More time is needed to go over these documents, and I can't do that because I'm a thousand miles away from Detroit.

Muscle_Collector, I just want to clarify because I think you may be misunderstanding me. I'm not asking you to post anything. I'm not asking to list any numbers. What I'm interested in is knowing what you have - an inventory. For example:

1962 SD
1963 SD
1967 2+2
1967 Ram Air GTO
1967 Firebird 400
etc.

I'd like to know what exists, pretty much. Is that something you could do? Or do you think it would be in violation of your word?

[muscle_collector]

time to go thru it all would be the problem there. my personality doesnt let me sit and do things like that, i have to be moving. it is all i can do to sit at the computer for 15 to 20 minutes at a time. maybe someday i am bed ridden or something i might. dont hold your breath.

[Alvin]

Using the info you posted on the B (aka: the Dark Side) section as a reference (see below); Don Keefe mentioned to me that this information was not correct as written.


1. What is the correct total breakout for 1967 428HO Grand Prix convertibles?
a. How many man trans 428HOs?
b. How many auto trans 428HOs

[Diego]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

time to go thru it all would be the problem there. my personality doesnt let me sit and do things like that, i have to be moving. it is all i can do to sit at the computer for 15 to 20 minutes at a time. maybe someday i am bed ridden or something i might. dont hold your breath.

Well, here's hoping that you cramp up for 20 minutes one day soon.

Alvin:

Indeed, the number "559" is for all Grand Prixs equipped with the 428 HO, not just ragtops. From what I've tabulated, manual tranny hardtops number 555, and 205 for ragtops. This is for all motors available with 3- and 4-speed trannys. I have estimated a number of total 428 HOs with a manual and automatic, but I don't feel comfortable writing it here because it's based on math rather than actual documentation . . . and I could be wrong.

I do feel the numbers exist in the document but I only took note of a few pages, so I missed that one. I can tell you that 373 428 HOs from all big cars had a manual tranny. That's out of 1,405 cars.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Diego

Alvin:

... This is for all motors available with 3- and 4-speed trannys. I have estimated a number of total 428 HOs with a manual and automatic, . . . and I could be wrong.

... I can tell you that 373 428 HOs from all big cars had a manual tranny. That's out of 1,405 cars.

Interesting.

Seems that most people forget, if they ever knew, that a 3-spd manual trans was usually the basic transmission equipment installed by mfg.;

with the 4-spd manual;

3-spd and 4-spd “overdrive Switch Pitch" Automatics

available at a higher priced upgrade option; especially in the 1960’s.

You mention in your reply 3 and 4 speed trans.
Were there any 428HO’s equipped with 3-spd manual trans?

If so, any idea how many? GP’s, 2+2, etc?

[ITSBACK]

It will be interesting to see how many WJ coded 67 428's were put out, if anyone can figure it out.