[avman]

I'm more familiar with Mopar parts like these, so I need some help.
Apparently there are different water pumps and the number of bolts/holes that a 1965 421 can have, along with other year 421s and other Pontiac engines.
Anyway, I have a mechanic installing the CVF Wraptor serpentine belt, pulley, and accessory system, and I've been told the water pump that CVF includes has a different bolt hole count, and it's not compatible with the one on the 421 now.
The solution is to get this new timing cover and balancer from Summit, or another source:
Harmonic balancer
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-80020
The factory "ArmaSteel" crankshaft was balanced by the engine builder when the 421 was rebuilt.
Timing chain cover:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g6330
Would you please take a look at these and see if they are different than the one that is on the 421 now in the picture, and maybe tell me what the difference(s) is (are)?
I've included a picture of the Wraptor setup for Pontiac, if that helps. I'll see if I can get a picture of the Wraptor water pump.
THANKS

[thepontiacman]

Looks like you have the 8 bolt water pump and cover which came on that 421.
The serpentine system probably required the 69 and newer 11 bolt water pump and cover.
Newer balancers have 4 bolts that hold pulleys on.
Need more information on that serpentine belt system.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
The picture of the serpentine belt system is not a Pontiac engine.

[tooski]

https://www.cvfracing.com

Check out the CVF site. I looked at four of the serpentine systems for Pontiac. The notes for all four said that a balancer with four holes for pulleys, and an 11 bolt water pump is needed.

[avman]

Well, I ordered the Wraptor in person at Cruisin the Coast 2019, and a TON of other stuff, so I didn't read the details. The retailer was supposed to handle the "details"..
Here's my existing water pump in blue, and the 11 bolt bare aluminum Wraptor water pump.

[avman]

I see the Summit timing chain cover has the 11 bolt holes.
What a CRAZY change! 8 to 11...
Pretty strange design too....and I thought the Buick setup was wacky!
Lol!! Thanks a lot guys. If I didn't love Mopar and have my 440/6bbl Roadrunner, my wife and I would be fighting over the keys to the GTO. I would absolutely have a Pontiac over a Ford or Chevy!!

[Slick]

AVMAN,

Just in case you are unaware, the front cover requires two internal sleeves, one on either side of the water pump, through the cover to the block. Additionally, you will need the separator plate that goes between the water pump and the front cover. Finally, be sure to transfer from your old cover to the new one, the two locating sleeves that go between the block and the front cover around the two lower front cover bolts.

Stuart

[avman]

Can you tell me where the front cover sleeves and separator plate are available? I'll see if they come with the timing chain cover, or any of the other parts I have.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by avman

Can you tell me where the front cover sleeves and separator plate are available? I'll see if they come with the timing chain cover, or any of the other parts I have.

Sure, the sleeves are sold by Ames Performance (our host), BOP Engineering and Butler Performance.

Separator plates also sold by Butler, probably the other two as well.

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1287...cessories.html

Sleeves at Butler Also

https://butlerperformance.com/search.html?q=+sleeves

Good luck to you!

[avman]

Stuart aka Slick...
THANK YOU for your over the top help!!!
I really needed that, because I've got so much to do today. I ordered the parts from Butler because they had everything in stock, and I also got some stuff from Summit, along with gaskets, etc.
BIG HELP thanks forum members!!

[KEN CROCIE]

You need the 69 and later balancer too. Balancers are zero balanced and will slide right on. the only problem will be if the balance shop used the stock balancer to help balance the engine.

[avman]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

You need the 69 and later balancer too. Balancers are zero balanced and will slide right on. the only problem will be if the balance shop used the stock balancer to help balance the engine.

Thanks. Crank was balanced stand alone.
I got the balancer that the mechanic recommended from Summit. Nice for the price!
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-80020

[avman]

Pix as requested

[avman]

Now that I installed the new (69 and newer) 11 bolt timing chain cover and water pump, replacing the 8 bolt, well....
The thermostat housing/neck won't fit between the water pump and intake manifold...
AND
The mechanical fuel pump bolts threaded HOLES on the new timing chain cover are smaller in diameter than the holes in the pump flange, so I can't securely mount it or be sure it's mounted properly because of the "free play".
I'm hoping that there is a "69 and newer" T-stat housing and neck assy, and a 69 mech fuel pump actuator arm will work with the 421/428??
Help me out please!!

[gtospieg]

I guess you're running tripower...Some timing covers have a relief where your t-stat housing is hitting. It looks like your new timing cover doesn't have that relief. You may need to source a factory timing cover or an aftermarket cover that has the relief you need for tripower.

[avman]

Originally Posted by gtospieg

I guess you're running tripower...Some timing covers have a relief where your t-stat housing is hitting. It looks like your new timing cover doesn't have that relief. You may need to source a factory timing cover or an aftermarket cover that has the relief you need for tripower.

First, thanks for the reply.
Yes, I am running a Tripower.
Everything was fine until the Wraptor serpentine belt and accessory system came with an 11 bolt water pump. In my quest to run that pump, I found in this thread that I had to change the timing cover over to an 11 bolt.
Now that that has been done, I'm having 2 new problems: The T-stat housing/neck won't fit, and the fuel pump bolt holes in the timing cover have a smaller diameter.
Changing the timing cover again would really piss me off.
Is there such a thing as a "Tripower 11 bolt timing cover?"

[Slick]

I have several 11 bolt timing covers. Only one doesn't have the divit for th he TriPower (and several 2 x 4) intakes. It was purchased new from GM in the 70s. The timing covers that came on 69+cars definitely had the divit. I had no idea the aftermarket covers omitted that important feature.

As to the smaller bolt holes, yep, the later covers used 5/16" bolts to retain the fuel pump. Fuel pumps used to come with reducer sleeves so you could use the smaller bolts and retain alignment.

Alternately, you could drill and tap the holes for 3/8" × 16 bolts.

[avman]

Originally Posted by Slick

I have several 11 bolt timing covers. Only one doesn't have the divit for th he TriPower (and several 2 x 4) intakes. It was purchased new from GM in the 70s. The timing covers that came on 69+cars definitely had the divit. I had no idea the aftermarket covers omitted that important feature.

As to the smaller bolt holes, yep, the later covers used 5/16" bolts to retain the fuel pump. Fuel pumps used to come with reducer sleeves so you could use the smaller bolts and retain alignment.

Alternately, you could drill and tap the holes for 3/8" × 16 bolts.

Slick, THANKS again man! You have really saved me on this thread, please keep checking in, I appreciate it.
So no "different" thermostat housing/neck part could be the solution, and my brand new timing chain cover whose source was linked by a forum member, that has already been installed and painted blue, has to be replaced with one that has clearance??
As far as the fuel pump goes, I wouldn't mind buying a high flow but stock pressure version if the bolts were the "correct" size. My biggest concern is the pump actuator lever is the right size, length, and shape to work with my 421.
What say you?

[avman]

UPDATE! Problem resolved, and a BIG thank you to Butler Performance! They are selling me a nice, refurbished 1969 11 bolt timing chain cover with the Tripower dimple, and kindly taking back the one I bought from them online. If I would have called them it's likely that the thermostat housing/neck clearance issue would have been discussed, and I wouldn't be doing double work. I also decided to buy a Carter mechanical fuel pump from them, M6907, which is basically the Pontiac version of the M6903 I bought for my 440 6bbl that is THE go to mech fuel pump for the Mopar 6bbl setup. 120 GPH at 6 PSI should work great with the Tripower and the performance upgrades to the Rochesters via Titan of the Tripower Mr. Dick Boneske, and the performance enhancements done to the 421.

[avman]

NEXT problem in the "Wraptor Saga"...
The Wraptor installed pushes the stock fan further into the fan shroud, and part of this installation was a new Cold Case radiator.
Long story short, I ordered the dual electric fans setup and wiring harness from Cold Case, and I'm deleting the mechanical fan.

[avman]

So my wife and I picked up the GTO August 1st, about 6 weeks after we dropped it off. The drive home was frustrating, because one of the two 12" fans on the Cold Case fans and shroud assembly went out, but there's a possibility that was a tweaked frame due to uneven surface or unequal tightening of the 4 corners. I'll know more when I install the replacement that Cold Case was very good about sending out as soon as I reported the problem. It will be here this week.
The Dakota Digital VHX series gauge kit had 2 wires that had "snaggly" strands on the end,(see attached pic) and they were both from the water temperature probe to the control box, and the torque of the wire bundle being turned to put under the dash caused them to touch each other. That made the gauge read hot, along with the one fan out, made me think the engine was overheating when it was NOT. The fuel level gauge was reading wrong too, so on top of thinking the engine was hot, one fan out, we ran out of gas! All of this on the ride home that should have been a celebration of the "new goodies" that we paid to have installed.
Once I fixed the wire ends, both the water temperature gauge and the fuel level gauge work fine. I also got the Dakota Digital Bluetooth programmable electric fans control module, and the Summit Racing GPS speedometer module. Each fan has its own relay and power circuit, so that minimizes voltage spikes and provides "backup" should one circuit fail, although it is better to have both 12" fans running, one out of two is better than zero. Given the size of the fans, they are each rated at 1,400 CFM, and most of the better 16" fans that are meant to run solo are around 2,500 CFM, and the explanation I got when I asked if one fan would suffice (they said no, but the radiator is excellent, and I still believe one is better than none) was they run 2 fans because together they move more air. Apparently above 45 mph the fans become redundant, that is the air flow at 45+ mph is sufficient for cooling. The Vintage Air works fine for the time we ran it, but I have to see how to either operate it so the compressor doesn't run when the heater is on, or make whatever installation adjustments are needed to make that happen.
I'm disappointed that "your car is ready" resulted in a car that was NOT ready, but I'm glad I have innate troubleshooting skills.
We are going to bring the GTO to the same shop that did the 9" Quick Performance rear axle assembly installation and rear suspension upgrades, and the Wilwood brakes about a year ago to have the TKO600 5 speed and Hydramax hydraulic throwout bearing conversion kit installed, along with the replacement housing with the original correct adjustable lower lift bar brackets, and Global West coilover conversion setup done. I don't know if that part will be done by October for Cruisin the Coast, but I hope so.
Here's a video of the Wraptor and dash, and the pic of the bad wires before I fixed them.
https://youtu.be/1cOfy7UG3QA