#21  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

In February of 1970,when our FAVORITE car/platform came to life,the automotive press went WILD over it. I'll bet the 70 1/2 F-cars were revued in over 20 different magazines.

6 months later when the 71's came out,NOBODY from the automotive press even gave them the time of day. the cars basically looked the same as last years,but compression was way down,as were HP ratings & everybody assumed that performance would have gone the same way. NOT SO!

72 was a strike year (longest strike in GM history) & the press couldn't have gotten a car to test even if they had wanted one.

By 73 (fall of 72) the SD was the BUZZ WORD & it became a legend in EVERY Pontiac Enthusiasts mind. (although they had NEVER seen or driven one)
Car Driver roadtested an early 73 & was into the 13's as I recall,but the engine had a pre-production cam. (which the EPA caught & Pontiac had to revise)

When the 74's finally came out & there were a few tests published,but performance (out of the box) was not that impressive. The tuners (Nunzi & co. got ahold of one) & with headers,gears,Holly & slicks,were starting to crank some #'s,but it wasn't STOCK anymore.

The SD motor STILL seems to be the LEGENDARY one,but as discussions in past threads regarding actual testing confirm,the 455 HO IS the faster/quicker of the two round port 455's (in stock form)
The SD motor is stronger,from an engineering perspective,but all of the HD parts DON'T make HP!
Out of the BOX the HO makes MORE power & the 71/72 T/A's & Formula's were likely a couple hundred pounds LIGHTER than the 73/74's which makes for quicker trip down the quarter.

The purpose of the 455 HO thread/forum HERE is to give the FASTER round port motor the recognition it DESERVES!

I like Sd's as well as the next guy,but the HO will get the groceries home SOONER.
My inner voice tells me you're jerking everyone's chain with this request in the first place, but all in good fun either way, IMO.

I think you nailed it with regard to why the '71s got no respect. In general the world doesn't really care how hard automotive engineers have to work to overcome the obstacles (fuel quality, emissions, safety, etc.) that are thrown at them. And anyway, increasing displacement wasn't rocket science. Fact is the car was (within driver capability and car-to-car tuning variability) no quicker than a '70. And the 455HO was the "standard" engine (at least in a T/A). The fact that the air flowed through round shaped passages instead of D-shaped passages probably didn't excite too many people back then. Low compression, milder cam, calmer idle, lower RPM.... zzzzzzzzz.

By '73 everyone knew the musclecar was a dying breed, and the SD was clearly the "last gasp". That's why there are so many more low mileage SDs around than HOs. People knew when they bought them that they were the last of an era, even if they weren't necessarily quicker than the '70-'72s.

As for the separate forum thing... I actually migrated from CP over to PY because I liked the segmentation by model. But lets face it.... there aren't many '70-'73 birds or owners/enthusiasts around, period. Don't really need to try to cut it any finer, IMO. There's only a couple of new/different posts that pop up on most days anyway... is that too much to have to sort through?

cheers-

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  #22  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:45 AM
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Smile H/O Forum

Sorry Guys, I must confess, I have strayed. Can I join the H/O forum with this.
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  #23  
Old 10-30-2007, 03:56 AM
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if that puppy still has the 455 i'm good with it.

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  #24  
Old 10-30-2007, 04:12 AM
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NICE Cutlass!

Did you put the mailboxes on the hood??????

  #25  
Old 10-30-2007, 01:34 PM
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I see 2many knows Olds. This is a real Hurst Olds H/O 455 with 49K miles. It still has the original engine, trans, tires, hoses, belts. It is a true survivor. Not run since the first owner put it away in 1976. The car rides great and the engine is very quiet. I thought I was standing next to a Honda, it was that quiet.

  #26  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:07 PM
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That's a KEEPER!

You still have my old T/A?

  #27  
Old 10-30-2007, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith k
My inner voice tells me you're jerking everyone's chain with this request in the first place, but all in good fun either way, IMO.

I think you nailed it with regard to why the '71s got no respect. In general the world doesn't really care how hard automotive engineers have to work to overcome the obstacles (fuel quality, emissions, safety, etc.) that are thrown at them. And anyway, increasing displacement wasn't rocket science. Fact is the car was (within driver capability and car-to-car tuning variability) no quicker than a '70. And the 455HO was the "standard" engine (at least in a T/A). The fact that the air flowed through round shaped passages instead of D-shaped passages probably didn't excite too many people back then. Low compression, milder cam, calmer idle, lower RPM.... zzzzzzzzz.

By '73 everyone knew the musclecar was a dying breed, and the SD was clearly the "last gasp". That's why there are so many more low mileage SDs around than HOs. People knew when they bought them that they were the last of an era, even if they weren't necessarily quicker than the '70-'72s.

As for the separate forum thing... I actually migrated from CP over to PY because I liked the segmentation by model. But lets face it.... there aren't many '70-'73 birds or owners/enthusiasts around, period. Don't really need to try to cut it any finer, IMO. There's only a couple of new/different posts that pop up on most days anyway... is that too much to have to sort through?

cheers-
I think Keith hit the nail on the head as far as why HOs were overlooked at the time. Also SDs were put on a pedestal because they were the only really fast cars made in 73-74. The SD mystique only intensified at the time because of "limited availability". As we know the '73s were held up because of internal politics at PMD, and then released at the end of the model run. In 74 there were far more orders submitted than cars built. I have a friend that is an original owner of a 74 455 non SD auto car. He ordered the car as an SD 4 speed, and waited and waited. The dealer finally told him around 5/1/74 that he better change it to a non-SD or he would end up with a '75!

When I went searching for my first car in '76 I found my '71, but would have jumped at an SD if one presented itself. In those days you searched the classifieds, Hemming's and dealer lots and took the best of what you could find. Over the years I have kept an eye out for a clean SD and they have always been "pricey". I thought $12k, for example, was ridiculous in about '82 for a '73 4 speed SD. Hindsight.......

I'll weigh back in on the SD-HO debate....I don't think that an HO is "definitely" faster (and I own an HO!)

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=534639&page=2

I think that the two are so similar in terms of producing torque and HP that the level of bluepriniting and quality of assembly can make the difference.

  #28  
Old 10-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Father&Son73T/A Father&Son73T/A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S
NICE Cutlass!

Did you put the mailboxes on the hood??????
Did you put the mailboxes on the hood??????[/QUOTE]
That is NOT Cutlass my friend!
From 68 on they were there own body style,..............442!
If you run up against a stock W-30 or even a properly built Olds 455,you'll be humbled more than the "Humbler" can do to you.
I'm a Pontiac die hard through and through,but a REAL high perf Olds is a SERIOUSE contender in the muscle car world my friend.
Yes,they were big heavy cars,but so were the Goats,but Olds had the torque to twist off arms easily.
Sorry,this is the reason for my rant,I sold her less than two weeks ago after owning her since Dec. 1st 1989.
She had the orig #'s 400 and this 462 I built,NOTHING on the street didn't give her the due respect.








Now,back to the Pontiac love

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Last edited by Father&Son73T/A; 10-30-2007 at 10:32 PM.
  #29  
Old 10-30-2007, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father&Son73T/A
That is NOT Cutlass my friend!
From 68 on they were there own body style,..............442!
If you run up against a stock W-30 or even a properly built Olds 455,you'll be humbled more than the "Humbler" can do to you.
I'm a Pontiac die hard through and through,but a REAL high perf Olds is a SERIOUSE contender in the muscle car world my friend.
Yes,they were big heavy cars,but so were the Goats,but Olds had the torque to twist off arms easily.
Now,back to the Pontiac love
So I guess that's like calling a T/A a Firebird?

Actually,I do know all about the HO (Hurst Olds) with the mailboxes on the hood & I have NO problem with their engines,especially 455's that were spec'd by HURST!

While we're talking about COOL & QUICK A-bodies,the one to beat was the 70 GSX Stage 1.(that's the one that kicked EVERYBODYS butt,right out of the box.) A Buick? IMAGINE THAT!

  #30  
Old 10-30-2007, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S
So I guess that's like calling a T/A a Firebird?

Actually,I do know all about the HO (Hurst Olds) with the mailboxes on the hood & I have NO problem with their engines,especially 455's that were spec'd by HURST!

While we're talking about COOL & QUICK A-bodies,the one to beat was the 70 GSX Stage 1.(that's the one that kicked EVERYBODYS butt,right out of the box.) A Buick? IMAGINE THAT!
I agree 2manyta's,I was just dropping off the 73 TA at my mechanics and there was an orig GS Stage 1 4spd there,the owner has a GS Stage 1 4spd convert also,can you say MID SIX FIGURES?

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  #31  
Old 10-30-2007, 11:21 PM
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Wow, maybe the Olds guys will finally get some respect.

Back to the Buick 455 Stage I. That's the car I am constantly looking out for. It is bad to the bone. But hard to find a good one.

  #32  
Old 10-31-2007, 01:06 AM
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loved all the A bodies.had a 67 396 SS in high school,it was a neat car,but the 70-72 bodies were they ones i liked.rims and tires and you had the look,but any of the 455's buick,olds or pontiac you got some respect.

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  #33  
Old 10-31-2007, 12:57 PM
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I think the GSX Stage II with the round ports is one of the best.

  #34  
Old 10-31-2007, 01:42 PM
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weren't they kind of like the ram air V's where you had to buy them over the parts counter?only a couple proto types built.but yes they would run.stage II,stage I,then any 455 in a 70 and hold on.don't remember hardly any in my area,mostly SS and GTO's.

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  #35  
Old 10-31-2007, 02:45 PM
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I believe that's correct.

The Stage II stuff was NOT available on production cars,only over the counter.

You know why there aren't any around?
Cause NOBODY BOUGHT THEM!
(they're Buicks,RIGHT?)

  #36  
Old 10-31-2007, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971WARBIRD
weren't they kind of like the ram air V's where you had to buy them over the parts counter?only a couple proto types built.but yes they would run.stage II,stage I,then any 455 in a 70 and hold on.don't remember hardly any in my area,mostly SS and GTO's.
Yes,the Stage II stuff was just like the RA V,it was over the counter.But there was definitely more than a couple of proto types made,but I don't know prod. figures.
And try to find any Stage II stuff,big money like the RA V.
From what I have read,a GS Stage 1 alone had 370 "rated" hp and 510 lbs of torque and was the fastest production muscle car of it's time in the QTR mile.
Now,bring in the Hemi's,and I'm not sure.

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  #37  
Old 10-31-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S
I believe that's correct.

The Stage II stuff was NOT available on production cars,only over the counter.

You know why there aren't any around?
Cause NOBODY BOUGHT THEM!
(they're Buicks,RIGHT?)
Remember,hi-perf Buicks and Olds were a lot more expensive than the other GM lines.
These were the rich mans "Luxo-muscle cars"
Buicks' logo was "Go Fast with Class"

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1973 T/A Buccaneer Red L-75 A3,83k mi. #'s match
1979 T/A Atlantis Blue W-72 WS6 23k mi.survivor#'s match
1999 T/A Navy Blue 60k mi....babied
1968 442-gone but not forgotten
"Oh,you can think about it,.....but don't do it!"
Sheriff Bufford T.Justice
  #38  
Old 10-31-2007, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio ps
I see 2many knows Olds. This is a real Hurst Olds H/O 455 with 49K miles. It still has the original engine, trans, tires, hoses, belts. It is a true survivor. Not run since the first owner put it away in 1976. The car rides great and the engine is very quiet. I thought I was standing next to a Honda, it was that quiet.
WOW!
Do you have ANY idea how much that baby is worth?
Big money my friend.

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1973 T/A Buccaneer Red L-75 A3,83k mi. #'s match
1979 T/A Atlantis Blue W-72 WS6 23k mi.survivor#'s match
1999 T/A Navy Blue 60k mi....babied
1968 442-gone but not forgotten
"Oh,you can think about it,.....but don't do it!"
Sheriff Bufford T.Justice
  #39  
Old 10-31-2007, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father&Son73T/A
Yes,the Stage II stuff was just like the RA V,it was over the counter.But there was definitely more than a couple of proto types made,but I don't know prod. figures.
And try to find any Stage II stuff,big money like the RA V.
From what I have read,a GS Stage 1 alone had 370 "rated" hp and 510 lbs of torque and was the fastest production muscle car of it's time in the QTR mile.
Now,bring in the Hemi's,and I'm not sure.
WAY BACK,about 20 years ago,Muscle Car Review magazine used to run a lot of "shootouts" between stock original/restored muscle cars.
The cars appeared to be "stock",but you know how that one goes.

The GS Stage 1's SPANKED EVERYTHING including the "overrated" hemi!

I'm NOT a big Buick Fan,but my hat is OFF to that car!


Last edited by 2manyT/A'S; 10-31-2007 at 09:55 PM.
  #40  
Old 10-31-2007, 09:15 PM
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It is only worth what one thinks it's worth. The previous owner has the 68 Hurst Olds also. All original. All... He's not ready yet. I hope that I am first in line. 515 produced,
390HP 510LBS-FT torque. Yahoooooo.

If I had to stray from my Pontiacs, these are two of the four cars I am after. The others being 1970 Buick GS 455 Stage I and the 1970 or 1971 Ford Torino Super Cobra Jet 429SCJ. One down, three to go.

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