[Greg Reid]

Yeah, it's about as complicated as mixing oil and gas for your weedeater.

[400 4spd.]

No Kidding. That's why my weed eaters run off of 110.

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

ZDDP = small bottle to oil change, NO Chemistry degree needed! Its under 4 ounces.
Funny the anti foaming stuff gets posted. This is why you don't need the oil over 212 degrees...

My question would be: What is the ZDDP content of the oil you are starting with before adding your additional 4 ounce bottle of ZDDP?

Surely, there are many different oil brands out there. Each oil inherently has a different ZDDP content to begin with. Some oils could be so low in ZDDP that a 4 ounce bottle won't do enough good, while oils already high in ZDDP might not need a stitch of your 4 ounce bottle of ZDDP additive. In summary, different oils will end up with different ZDDP levels using your same 4 ounce bottle of additive.

That is the only reason I make my "chemist" comment. At the end of the day, can you be absolutely sure you are arriving at the correct balance of ZDDP?

This is why I would rather leave this job to professional oil blenders. I trust them to know what the correct level of ZDDP actually is, and I trust them to produce a consistent and repeatable product, bottle after bottle.

[Formulabruce]

I use Rotella T . It has zinc, but not enough. Too much will hurt Nothing.
Aside from all that, the biggest concern for zinc additive is with a fresh cam and lifters. Cam lobes do harden over time, and They really do not need as much as a fresh built engine might.
When you get deeper into this, racing oils have plenty, but are not synthetic, and are Made to change more often.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

I use Rotella T . It has zinc, but not enough. Too much will hurt Nothing.
Aside from all that, the biggest concern for zinc additive is with a fresh cam and lifters. Cam lobes do harden over time, and They really do not need as much as a fresh built engine might.
When you get deeper into this, racing oils have plenty, but are not synthetic, and are Made to change more often.

Link to Driven motor oil, Nov. 11 2019 video with oil analysis from 2 racing engines showing indeed too much ZDDP will cause more wear.

https://www.facebook.com/DrivenRacin...9323793001882/

Driven motor oil with oil analysis results compared to Mobil one racing oil showing more wear with much more ZDDP in a Nascar Truck series engine, and also a 360 sprint car engine. When over a certain threshold the package with more ZDDP actually shows more wear than a lesser amount of the same additive in the Driven oil.

More is not better, and actually when it's too much of a concentration it actually accelerates wear rather than fending off wear.

Making your own cocktail of oil additives isn't just as simple as pouring in 4 ounces of a concentrate containing ZDDP, and calling it good. The balance of the additive package is critical. Without doing oil analysis you're shooting in the dark mixing additives yourself.

[455Grandville]

It’s my understanding that stock engines with mild valve spring pressure don’t need as much zddp as a engine with a hotter cam and stiffer valve springs.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

It’s my understanding that stock engines with mild valve spring pressure don’t need as much zddp as a engine with a hotter cam and stiffer valve springs.

Ive sorta begun to come around to this way of thinking. Disclaimer here, I dont pretend to be an expert on this subject, but after reading, and hearing a fair amount of smart people talk about it, I think there has been a snapback effect to oils losing zinc levels. To the point where people are paranoid about it now.

In reference to stockish motors that dont have a lot of spring pressure, and arent running aggressive ramps. Seems like nearly all cam failures happen during break in. Once your cam is work hardened, I have a hard time seeing it go bad due to an 800 ppm zddp level instead of 1200 ppm.

The ONLY thing Ive ever seen than made me question this a little is I saw one study that said in paraphrase "After break in, the only time your cam really requires the additive zinc package is during the couple of seconds during startup when the whole engine doesnt have proper oiling yet."

Another note with regards to cam failure is that I think some of them come down to good old fashioned user error. How many people rebuild with stouter valve springs than they need?

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Link to Driven motor oil, Nov. 11 2019 video with oil analysis from 2 racing engines showing indeed too much ZDDP will cause more wear.

https://www.facebook.com/DrivenRacin...9323793001882/

Driven motor oil with oil analysis results compared to Mobil one racing oil showing more wear with much more ZDDP in a Nascar Truck series engine, and also a 360 sprint car engine. When over a certain threshold the package with more ZDDP actually shows more wear than a lesser amount of the same additive in the Driven oil.

More is not better, and actually when it's too much of a concentration it actually accelerates wear rather than fending off wear.

Making your own cocktail of oil additives isn't just as simple as pouring in 4 ounces of a concentrate containing ZDDP, and calling it good. The balance of the additive package is critical. Without doing oil analysis you're shooting in the dark mixing additives yourself.

Gee, had No idea this thread was about racing engines.
Since the old Castrol GTX days, and the reduction in Zinc, and installing 4 OZ extra in my Drivers, I have had no issues. I did get my oil tested a few times as one of my customers was a oil testing facility when I was working. When zddp first was offered, I used it in synthetic oil. At 15,000 miles used, the oil still passed all tests for its certification.
But, like most folks here in the Lobby, I was , and am not "Racing"
Basically speaking ALL current Motor oils from 5 Winter and up to 40 Summer will be 30X better than the non detergent motor oils of old. .

[Sirrotica]

The ZDDP is the cheapest additive that chemical engineers could use to fend off flat tappet wear especially during break in. There are other additives that are able to do the same thing, but they are more expensive. It's perfectly plausible to have lower ZDDP concentration and still have other additives carrying the water, instead of ZDDP, you will pay more for oils with other wear agents substituted for ZDDP.

As the engineer says in the video I referenced said, the balance of the additive package is needed to get all the additives working in the same direction. Kind of like getting all the parts in a performance engine working in orchestration. One single part won't give you optimum performance if all the parts don't compliment each other. Balancing the formula to get the most from the sum of all the agents get the best result.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Gee, had No idea this thread was about racing engines.
Since the old Castrol GTX days, and the reduction in Zinc, and installing 4 OZ extra in my Drivers, I have had no issues. I did get my oil tested a few times as one of my customers was a oil testing facility when I was working. When zddp first was offered, I used it in synthetic oil. At 15,000 miles used, the oil still passed all tests for its certification.
But, like most folks here in the Lobby, I was , and am not "Racing"
Basically speaking ALL current Motor oils from 5 Winter and up to 40 Summer will be 30X better than the non detergent motor oils of old. .

Gee, nobody said anything about only street engines, the topic was flat tappet engines. Flat tappets are used in all kinds of engines last I looked. The example that Driven used to illustrate about additives, and balancing the package. They happened to use 2 race engines because they show wear more rapidly. The point was made that too much ZDDP will cause more wear, not less. There is a point that the additive stops being beneficial, and causes galling and pitting.

The engine doesn't have to be a race engine, but I'm sure the blanket statement that, "you can't use too much ZDDP" made by you was only for street engines. It really doesn't matter as long as it's an IC engine, it applies to all reciprocating engines and wear properties of the oil.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Ive sorta begun to come around to this way of thinking. Disclaimer here, I dont pretend to be an expert on this subject, but after reading, and hearing a fair amount of smart people talk about it, I think there has been a snapback effect to oils losing zinc levels. To the point where people are paranoid about it now.

In reference to stockish motors that dont have a lot of spring pressure, and arent running aggressive ramps. Seems like nearly all cam failures happen during break in. Once your cam is work hardened, I have a hard time seeing it go bad due to an 800 ppm zddp level instead of 1200 ppm.

The ONLY thing Ive ever seen than made me question this a little is I saw one study that said in paraphrase "After break in, the only time your cam really requires the additive zinc package is during the couple of seconds during startup when the whole engine doesnt have proper oiling yet."

Another note with regards to cam failure is that I think some of them come down to good old fashioned user error. How many people rebuild with stouter valve springs than they need?

I’m curious if thousands actually had cam failures or was it a just a few who widespread panic ? And if it’s just a few maybe the cams were old or had poor case hardening during manufacture.

I have a beat to hell CJ5 I’ve owned for years with a 304 for off roading and I never added anything and it has no issues.

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

More is not better, and actually when it's too much of a concentration it actually accelerates wear rather than fending off wear.

Making your own cocktail of oil additives isn't just as simple as pouring in 4 ounces of a concentrate containing ZDDP, and calling it good. The balance of the additive package is critical. Without doing oil analysis you're shooting in the dark mixing additives yourself.

This ^^^^^

[1965gp]

It may be that the community over reacted to the zinc issue (think shark attacks) but for the once a year or two years I change my oil it’s worth it to me. I am going to see if I can order VR1 online from Menards- that’s a good deal.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by 1965gp

It may be that the community over reacted to the zinc issue (think shark attacks) but for the once a year or two years I change my oil it’s worth it to me. I am going to see if I can order VR1 online from Menards- that’s a good deal.

I agree with this. Even though I think people over think it, an extra $15 or $20 once a year for a high quality oil is worth being able to sleep better.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Gee, nobody said anything about only street engines, the topic was flat tappet engines. Flat tappets are used in all kinds of engines last I looked. The example that Driven used to illustrate about additives, and balancing the package. They happened to use 2 race engines because they show wear more rapidly. The point was made that too much ZDDP will cause more wear, not less. There is a point that the additive stops being beneficial, and causes galling and pitting.

The engine doesn't have to be a race engine, but I'm sure the blanket statement that, "you can't use too much ZDDP" made by you was only for street engines. It really doesn't matter as long as it's an IC engine, it applies to all reciprocating engines and wear properties of the oil.

I'll back this up. Too much is detrimental to good lubrication. The secret is in a balanced additive package. The best balanced packages come in ready-to-go oils, not home brew combinations of additives. I have and will continue to run cheap dino diesel spec Rotella or Delo in all my flat tappet cars. Have for years now, and zero issues. Teardown of the 400 in my '67 GTO to do a rear main and reseal 9 years ago at about 90k miles on the rebuild showed rod and main bearings that looked new, with no signs of wear. The engine was also spotless inside with no sludge or varnish. Good enough for me. I installed new gaskets and am running it. Expect to get at least 80k more miles before the next overhaul. The first overhaul was at 173,000 miles in 1988.

[455abody]

VR1 for my Goat

[autobahn]

I installed comp cam roller cam and Scorpion roller rockers can use just about any oil but use Valvoline VR1

[v8liveson]

I use VR-1 10w-30 in my drivers. Menards or Napa (during a Napa rewards sale) is the cheapest I can find it. Usually $5-7 a quart. At this price, it is cheaper than using a decent regular oil plus a zinc additive, and you know you have a fully functional oil (no wondering about compatibility, zinc concentration, etc.)

[vwalburn]

Should the question be asked as to how many miles a person drives their flat-tappet engines between oil changes in regards to how much ZDDP is needed? I've heard that there is enough ZDDP in regular oil for around 1000 - 1500 miles on an oil before more ZDDP would be needed. And, how it is driven i.e. - casual street driving vs. racing. Just some thoughts.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by vwalburn

Should the question be asked as to how many miles a person drives their flat-tappet engines between oil changes in regards to how much ZDDP is needed? I've heard that there is enough ZDDP in regular oil for around 1000 - 1500 miles on an oil before more ZDDP would be needed. And, how it is driven i.e. - casual street driving vs. racing. Just some thoughts.

The ZDDP level would be could for the service life of the oil, and depending on the filter, that could be anywhere between 4,000 and 40,000 miles. Too much ZDDP is bad, and running racing oil in a street engine is bad, as it doesn't have the additive package needed to protect a street driven engine.