[sdbob]

Thanks Tom its good to get the truestory.Interesting.

[cat tracker]

TOM S: Bill Blair always did have a way with words. Tell him HI for me if you talk to him again. - Dwight Sr.

[tom s]

I talk to him all the time,every time I do it seems to cost me money!I asked him if he was going to Norwalk because I would going to buy him dinner.He said know but just send him the money.Tom

[mechanickeith]

Hey Tom, Send him $2.49 & tell him thats what a "Happy Meal" cost!!

[Tom Vaught]

It is nice to have that extra history finally.

Tom V.

PS I know that Bill gave Randy the Tempest "Bathtub" that is on the car. The "Tempest"
intake is different from the Catalina SD type intake.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

Bill has his history wrong, in many facets.

The car was NOT ordered by a customer. The car was ordered by Harold Ramsey hisself (a salesman at Union Park), to race hisself, along with a '63 Swiss Cheese. When the car was thrown into a category that it could NOT compete in, Harold tried to sell the car. I tried to call Harold two years ago, but he suffered a stroke and could not speak. Sadly, Harold passed away last year, from what I heard.

A friend of mine, 19 at the time, was one of those who tried to buy the car, but whose mother would not co-sign a loan to buy a car that could not be driven on the street.



The car was NOT raced by a "couple of guys"; the car was raced by Joe(Hippo)with Harold's assistance. Previously, Hippo ran a '62 Plymouth 413, towed by a '61 Chevy Biscayne 348. Like the '63 SD wagon, the '62 Plymouth was also repossessed.



The car was NOT wrecked by running off the end of the track; the car was wrecked because it hit a deer on the track at Cecil County, MD.

I wasn't aware that junkyards/impound lots offered GMAC financing on wrecked, repossessed year-old cars without motors.



For Mr. Blair's story to be accurate, the car would have had to be taken from the impound lot, repaired with new aluminum, painted, have the motor reinstalled, finance fees paid, impound and towing fees paid, etc; All to sell a car, in running condition, with GMAC financing AND a warranty, for $2300? And from whom did Mr. Blair buy the car? Union Park? The credit company?



Don Keefe has also researched the history and has actually spoken to Hippo, so perhaps Don can offer his insight.

I spoke to Bill about this 18 years ago and to my recollection, he was speaking of a different SD wagon. I could be wrong on that point, tho, but I don't think so. The next step would be to call Frank Ursumorso, Jr., at Union Park and have him dig up his records. Then, the PA DMV would have to substantiate a title history. I'll leave that up to Mr. Keefe. Or to Tex the Investigator...



Hey, I'm as big a fan of these early Tempests/Catalinas as the next guy; probably moreso than most. Consequently, I'd like to believe the car made it out of the junkyard in '64. However, there are too many holes in the stories to leave unexplained, and to just believe on the surface those with financial stakes in the car.



Now....on to Amelia Earheart and Jimmy Hoffa. I know of this guy who claims to have a femur bone belonging to Jimmy Hoffa.........

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:

I wasn't aware that junkyards/impound lots offered GMAC financing on wrecked, repossessed year-old cars without motors.



</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I wasn't aware that GMAC financing existed in 1964.

[carbking]

Brian - GMAC has been around a lot longer than 1964. I believe GMAC began operations in either 1920 or 1921 (not positive which). GMAC has a monthly magazine, which used to have some very comprehensive articles on GM products. I do have an issue from 1929.

Jon.

[tom s]

Scott,if Bill said he bought the car from Union Park and fininaced it through GMAC I would tend to believe him over just about ANYONE you can come up with.Tom

[63Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now....on to Amelia Earheart and Jimmy Hoffa. I know of this guy who claims to have a femur bone belonging to Jimmy Hoffa......... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How much does he want for it?

[tom s]

Brian,I bought a brand new 63 Lemans when they came out and it was finianced by GMAC.I also think my 62 Lemans was by GMAC.Tom

[carbking]

I was off by a year

GMAC history

Jon.

[CH3NO2 Pontiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tom s:
Scott,if Bill said he bought the car from Union Park and fininaced it through GMAC I would tend to believe him over just about ANYONE you can come up with.Tom </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask him to account for the period of time between when it was repossessed and when he claims to have bought it. Also ask him who he bought it from. Did Union Park Pontiac repossess the car? Who repossessed the car after Hippo failed to make any payments on it?



Incidentally, isn't Bill Blair the same guy who lettered his '63 Tempest with "Union Park Pontiac", yet Union Park NEVER had an SD Tempest coupe?

[tom s]

Scott,you have been to his place!YOU give him a call!YOU and BRIAN are the only ones concerned about a car that is NOT for sale and will NOT ever be for sale!If you seem to have lost his number,you know all of mine,call me and I will give it to you.Tom

[J Brady]

Bryan and Blown Nitro who ever you are. What difference does it make where it was at for a period of time. It is one of the nicest restorations of its kind. Randy was a first class guy and Bill Blair is a stand up guy also. You guys have way to much time on your hands. If it is documented thats all I need. and I will bet that it is!

[Brian Baker]

Guys, it is truly a beautiful restoration. No question there.

Provenance makes and breaks these types of cars, and this car still has some questions about its history. My BS detector is pretty sensitive, although it hasn't gone off yet. There are many "old guys" in this hobby that are sometimes portraying cars as something they are not, sometimes for ego, but more often than not, for monetary gains. This car coming from a shop whose proprietor has openly admitted in a national publication that "rebodying" and "restamping blocks" is ok, and the conflicting history around the car, to me, throws up a huge flaming red flag of doubt. This car not being for sale at this time is irrelevant.

[Don Keefe]

OK- Since my name was mentioned in this discussion, I guess it is time to chime in here.

I have researched this car extensively and have spoken to many involved with this car in one way or another over the years, including the late Randy Williams, Jean Williams, Scott Tiemann, Fred Simmonds, Pete McCarthy, Joe DeNick and even Scott Misus, among many others. Only one person has really questioned the car's authenticity. I understand his concern but I really don't believe that it is warranted and I have told him that more than once. We have "agreed to disagree" in this case, though it seems he is not satisfied with my conclusions. My concern over this is that I don't want to see this to become a split in the hobby due to a question I believe was answered years ago.

The main thing that grabs me about the entire conversation is that the pieces of the puzzle DO more or less fit. I am not seeing anything in major conflict here. There may be some minor timeline discrepencies, but over the course of 40+ years, memories fade and details become harder to recall. In broad strokes, the story is very much in the ballpark.

As a researcher who has sifted through countless cases professionally since 1988, I'm not seeing a fundamental problem here. If there is a shooting in the middle of a crowded street, you will get as many differing accounts as people interviewed. That is human nature. No one is necessarily lying, it is just different points of view. The researcher is left to put together a viable account of the situation based on available information. To take every piece as gospel is to chase your tail and never reach the truth. I've made this mistake before and it really leads to nothing but dead ends.

If you want to sit there and argue minutia, you better bring verifiable documents, because if you're making assertions based on "facts," those facts better be based on more than second or third-hand accounts. Even undocumented first-hand accounts are suspect, as 40+ years can take their tolls on "clear recollections."

Is it unusual that a 1 of 6 aluminum-nosed 421 SD Tempest wagon would end up in a junkyard? Yes it is unusual, but it is not the only time it had happened. As I recall, the Van Winkle car also ended up in a junkyard. I also heard that the Stan Long Pontiac coupe ended up there as well. I'm sure at least one or more of the others ended up there too.

How about stranger, rarer Pontiacs than that? How about the 1963-64 X-400 or the 1960 Bunkie Knudsen Bonneville? Yup- junkyards for both. Or the 4 Motorama showcars that spent 35+ years at Warhoops Auto Parts?

Fortunately, the X-400 found it way out when the yard was cleared in the early 1980s. The Motorama cars were rescued by Joe Bortz in 1989. The Knudsen Pontiac wasn't so lucky, as it was apparently crushed in 1990 after sitting in a Hopewell, NY salvage yard since 1965.

Yes, strange and unusual things happen to strange and unusual cars. I am also researching a Plymouth prototype right now, the 1955 Plainsman wagon. It was sent to Cuba and the owner, the President of the Bank of Cuba, was murdered in the front seat by one of Castro's thugs. I have personally seen the bloodstained seats before they were recovered. The car later ended up in Australia and was even converted to right-hand drive!

The point is that strange and unusual cars come with strange and unusual stories.

As for the "rebody" theory, it is not true, plain and simple. Yes, the car was in rough shape, yes, it suffered some structural damage and yes a donor car gave up some parts in its restoration. If you have a copy of the Novemeber/December, 1999 issue of Pontiac Enthusiast, you too have copies of the photos of the restoration. As the Editor-in-Chief at the time, I can assure everyone here that the photos depict the car at its most cut-up. I made sure that the most explicit photos were included to squash any future controversy regarding it provenance. Any photos not included were either doubles or not of publication-quality (too dark or the flash was too strong, etc.) The main progression of the story was amply covered there for all to see and was accurately captioned.

The bottom line is that the car was not a rebody. The VIN tags were not moved from one car to another and the majority of the car's unibody panels were the same as it left the factory with. Yes, some floorpan panels and an inner fender were replaced but the car is a faithful and accurate restoration of a very rare piece of Pontiac history.

The "asking of questions" is in effect, accusation without the responsibility of backing up of claims. Scott and I have conversed over the phone about this topic before and I'm telling you all now what I told him then, in the restoration of any car, "surprises" come up, pieces have to be replaced and originality is compromised in the pursuit of returning a car to its former glory. That's just the way it is. Calling this car a "rebody" is innacurrate. If it was, Randy Williams would have said so. He was as honest and upstanding a man as any man I ever met. His personal and business ethics were impeccable.

That being said, Randy didn't restore this car to sell it for a profit- the restoration cost likely exceeded its market value at the time. It has certainly appreciated since then, but I do not see Jean placing any ads in Hemmings or on eBay. He did it because it was his passion. The car was intended to be the centerpiece of his museum and that is where it is today. That car and his other Super Duty Pontiacs are his legacy. End of story.

[Brian Baker]

Don...thank you for the clarification.

[Don Keefe]

You're very welcome!

[Brian Baker]

Don, one more thing though, that hasn't been answered to my satisfaction (not that my satisfaction matters).

That is, how the car got from DeNick (Hippo) to the next owner. If the next owner was Blair, how did it get financed (or was it?) after being repopped and sitting in a junkyard with no engine? Also, did Union Park Pontiac (being in Delaware) sell the car to Blair with a Delaware title, or a Pennsylvania title (since DeNick lived in SW Philly)? Of course, some of these questions my not be able to be answered after 40 years.