[GT182]

Back from the meeting with Cardone in Philly, PA. It was a great success for all of us with overheating issues.

This turned out great thanks to Paul Spotts from PY, Cardone manager Therese Lal, Abraham George their engineer, Tom from Cardone, Charles and Dan. Plus a special thanks to Paul, as without him and his knowlege of Pontiac engines, this would not have happened. I surely could not have conveyed all of what was needed for this to happen on my own.

Paul explained and showed the problems we're all having, and Cardone did listen. It will probably take a couple of months to be sorted out, but Cardone says they can and will fix our biggest problem with overheating. It will probably be a new part number once done for both the 8 and 11 bolts pumps, so stay tuned so you know what it will be. PY or Paul will probably have that before I do and will let everyone know. Or it will be posted here if conveyed to me by either of them.

Solution:
It's been found that there is no standardization on how the impellers are installed to the water pump. Paul gave them a set of original and reproduced divider plates so they can see the correct gap needed that does away with cavatation. He also gave them an 8 bolt timing cover and I gave them an eleven bolt timing cover. Now they can see how both of their 8 & 11 bolt rebuilt pumps, for either pump with divider plates and timing covers all need fit together as a unit.

Also there will be no more shaving of the vanes on the impellers. The original divider plates everyone have that can still be used, and the reproductions, will no longer need to be beaten on to get the correct gap. Cardone had an original pump with the incorrect vane height that I put my altered and original divider plates on to see the differences. Now they see the problem as they couldn't before. Paul showed the correct unaltered pump and the unmolested original plates and how they fit with the correct gap. Plus it's found that the keyway, as cut in the original Pontiac rear divider plate, is not neccessary in the reproductions being made.

Cardone also said they will no longer use the stamped impellers, as they now see they are not as good as the cast impellers.

So when everything is set up and out the door from Cardone, you will now be able to buy the water pump you need, install it and the divider plates right out of the box. No "tweeking" will be required. And hopefully, I say hopefully, all will be as it was from the factory.... once again.

So when Cardone's remanufactured Pontiac water pumps hit the market, ask for their Pontiac water pumps only if you buy from anyone other than PY or Ames. I know PY will carry these, and I'm sure Ames will also. Other parts stores will follow once these catch on, and there will no longer be a need for the pumps that are only a 'band-aid' fix for the problem.

Cardone has lived up to their policy of making the best product they can to meet the consumer's needs. And that sure does wonders for us all and our Classic Pontiacs.

[Region Warrior]

Sweet!

[4dblnkldude]

Holy moly! Good job fellas! Now all we have to do is stop china from making pumps. lol

[GT182]

Originally Posted by 4dblnkldude

Holy moly! Good job fellas! Now all we have to do is stop china from making pumps. lol

Well, you might laugh but they told us there are some things China is making that are of excellent quality. But for the life of me I can't remember what they said they were. Pumps, I do know, wasn't one of those things. LOL

[Sirrotica]

Many thanks to all that took the initiative to get this done. I know it's not easy to get engineers at a big corporation to listen to the little guy as they have a piece of sheepskin that they interpret as they know it all. I have been the little guy trying to tell them the obvious solution to an obvious problem and only after they lost a good customer and blew up an engine, they finally, 1 1/2 years later came to the same conclusion I told them about at the beginning. Thing is by this time it was their idea, and their solution, to the original problem.........LMAO

[drtracer58]

Guess who will be getting all the Pontiac Reman Business now ?? LOL THANKS AGAIN, To all who helped get this age old problem corrected .......... And to Cardone Again for listening , I am sure they will be reaping the rewards very shortly

[GT182]

I can tell you one thing Brad.... they did listen with an open mind to both Paul and I. Tho Paul was the the most convincing one in the room. And he did open their eyes to the problem.

After seeing the incorrect gap with the plates we brought set on the their pumps and all pieces put toghether, they came to the same conclusion. And yes, this was done with a gasket on the timing cover with the plates and pump. When I showed them the differences in how far the impellers were pressed on the shaft, they realised that that needed to be addressed too and standardised..... all pressed on the exact same distance to give the correct gap. My only concern was, on what I thought could possibly make a difference, the thickness of different brands of gaskets. The one they had seems a bit thinner than the Felpro gasket I use. Tho Paul said it will be ok.

With that, Ames will be happy as they can leave the reproduction divider plates as they are. No changes are needed there. Just so everyone realises this, once you get this new correct pump, you will need new divider plates if you can't get the ones you have back to their original shape. I'm in that same boat too. Mine have been changed and I don't think I can bend them back. To me it's a small price to pay as long as I have the correct working pump and no more overheating.

[Old Goat 67]

Wow, what good news!

Gary, you and Paul really deserve a good steak dinner for making this touchdown for all!

I was on pins and needles until your call today.

Many, many Thanks. And a great big one for Cardone to have met us where they needed to!

Charles

[GT182]

LOL.... thanks Charles. I'll take my thick cut fillet mignon medium. LOL

There seems to be a bit of confusion. It's thought that we didn't address the same issues with the 11 bolt pumps. I assure everyone that we did, the same issues on the rebuilt 11 bolt pumps were discussed too. I gave them an 11 bolt timing case and Paul gave them an 11 bolt timing cover. So they now have both to use for their Quality Control.

[george kujanski]

Great job to all involved!

George

[68gtoMN]

To anyone who thinks that "one vote/voice will not make a difference", I direct you to this outcome.

Gentlemen, thank you. Your interest in "doing the right thing" will be a boon for the hobby and all who eventually need to purchase a replacement pump. It is the passion of the enthusiast that triumphed today in getting the ear of the company and making the case for an adjustment.

In this case, ALL win. Cardone showed wisdom in listening to their customers. The customers will benefit as will Cardone.

Again, great job in driving to the correct outcome with a collaborative effort. Thank you

[GT182]

Ok, it's time to give credit to where it's due..... and in the order on how this all fell into place.

To 67Dan - Dan Mascheck
Dan intiialize the frist contact with Cardone that there is a problem with the rebuilt pumps.

To Old Goat 67 - Charles Broussard
Charles for the calls to Production Manager Therese Lal at Cardone that finally got the ball rolling, and setting up the meeting with them.

To Production manager Therese Lal for listening to Charles. And seeing that there is a problem and understanding our needs.

To Chris and Mike at PY for getting Paul to the meeting.

To Paul Spotts for showing the problem and explaining it to Cardone's people. He is the one that sealed the deal and opened their eyes. Also for supplying the pieces need for them to do the correct Quality Control with the 8 bolt pumps, and an 11 bolt divider plate.

To the Engineers Abraham and Tom at Cardone to actually see first hand what this was all about. They had no ideahow this all worked as a unit seeing they had no timing covers or divider plates.

I was just along for the ride. But I did give them the 11 bolt timing cover so the 11 bolt pump problem can be addressed too. I also showed them that the impellers were pressed on too far. Which is a part of the problem they didn't realise.

[65gto69]

Great job guys!!!!!

Thanks to everyone that made this happen. It has been a long time coming.

Thanks,
Mark

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by GT182

Ok, it's time to give credit to where it's due..... and in the order on how this all fell into place.

To 67Dan - Dan Mascheck
Dan intiialize the frist contact with Cardone that there is a problem with the rebuilt pumps.

To Old Goat 67 - Charles Broussard
Charles for the calls to Production Manager Therese Lal at Cardone that finally got the ball rolling, and setting up the meeting with them.

To Production manager Therese Lal for listening to Charles. And seeing that there is a problem and understanding our needs.

To Chris and Mike at PY for getting Paul to the meeting.

To Paul Spotts for showing the problem and explaining it to Cardone's people. He is the one that sealed the deal and opened their eyes. Also for supplying the pieces need for them to do the correct Quality Control with the 8 bolt pumps, and an 11 bolt divider plate.

To the Engineers Abraham and Tom at Cardone to actually see first hand what this was all about. They had no ideahow this all worked as a unit seeing they had no timing covers or divider plates.

I was just along for the ride. But I did give them the 11 bolt timing cover so the 11 bolt pump problem can be addressed too. I also showed them that the impellers were pressed on too far. Which is a part of the problem they didn't realise.

Time out here!

To Gary for being my "local" electee to get to Cardone with "show and tell" pieces as I was too far away to go! Knowing he had an 8 bolt problem and had purchased an 11 bolt to go in maybe, he was my best guess for being elected! He subsequently said, "Hey lets get PY involved" and I heartily agreed. Best idea yet. That culminated with Mike at PY tech telling Chris and Paul about it and Paul saying he would go as he was VERY familiar with the problem and had multiple examples to bring. He in fact said he built Chris's engine for him.

Gary deserves a lot of credit here as he pulled his 8 bolt out of his car and drove 50 miles up there on his nickle to do it. Friends like this are hard to come by nowadays, but seem to be abundant in our Pontiac brotherhood! I am proud to be in this bunch and part of a team that can say "Well, CAN'T NEVER COULD"!

AND Dan Mascheck sent his purchased Cardone pump and backing plate up there on his nickle for another example.

Charles

[Old Goat 67]

Heck come to think of it, all I did was run my mouth.

[johnta1]

Thanks, Guys for the excellent work.

[67Dan]

Yes there is a Santa Claus! (LOL)

Maybe we should try as a team to get the countries budget on track now!

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Heck come to think of it, all I did was run my mouth.

And that was a good thing Charles. You did it well.

[grivera]

Wow, thanks to all who were involved! I really do appreciate this as last time a I bought a pump, I went through hell just getting one with a stamped impeller. I too consider myself fortunate to be in the same hobby with you fellas!

[67Dan]

Hopefully all our problems are over! time will tell! I'll sure be glad when they send me a correct pump back!