[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

One of my bosses used to say, "one piece of data is worth 1000 opinions".

Champ knows what his vehicle like. He has data on that vehicle.
I have data on my vehicle and know the type of driving I do and what I can
be happy with. Unless the two drivelines and vehicles are exactly the same there is no capability for arguing one way or the other.

Using words like Faults is another example of you using your opinion as far as what is a fault. Maybe is perfectly acceptable for the next guy. And the internet and someone posting in a forum does not allow you to be a JUDGE on whether their selection of parts is a fault or not. My way or the highway is the wrong approach, technically or personally.

Tom V.

So use a different word in there if it makes ya feel better. It's all good with me. I'm not that sensitive.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

No personal attacking, I'm just calling it as I read it here. You've kept making improvements on the first gear multiplication and planning to do more, but you're telling me at the same time it doesn't matter. Apparently you like the idea. Personally I don't care what you do with your car so no frustration on my part, I'm just trying to keep the conversation real with good data points for the sake of this board and the people reading. Driving military vehicles and buzzing up and down the autobahn has nothing to do with our discussion..

Calling me a liar isn't a personal attack? Who knew???

But the highlghted portion - where do you come up with that line of crap? Talk about taking things out of context....

I went from 3.42's to 3.08's several years ago. I haven't changed anything on my first gear multiplication. No changes, zilch, nada. Yet you claim I've kept making changes. Get real!

At some point in the future, instead of rebuilding my tired and worn 56 year old M20, I intend to install a much stronger, brand new M23Z that happens to also give me an improvement in my first gear multiplication.

It's a direct bolt in replacement, so no need to carve up my tunnel and I can still use my original Hurst shifter. It will be thousands of dollars less than an overdrive option and will suit my purposes fine.

There are people interested in my point of view, just like their are people interested in your point of view. My data points are just as valid as yours.

As to your last comment - yes I spent time on the autobahn.

But once I got off the autobahn and had to negotiate heavy city traffic in Heidleberg, Mannheim or Frankfurt - I played the stoplight to stoplight game just like everyone else. It's called daily driving - a subject that you brought in to the discussion. That's why it's relevant to the discussion.

But you knew that - you were just throwing another red herring out in a vain attempt to make your self look smarter... It didn't work.

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL!



The Champ.... Killing forums one thread at a time.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

What is being missed here are a number of factors. First factor is the driver. Some people simply should never own a manual transmission, period. Just because they can let out a clutch and shift a gear or two does not mean they can drive one.

A big factor is horsepower/torque. I don't need a super low 1st gear matched to any specific rear axle ratio. Give me a 2.56 rear gear and 400HP and I'd simply slip the disc to get the car rolling. I guarantee someone else would simply stall the engine, over, and over, and over...... because they do not know how to drive a manual trans. Those are the same people who when on a steep grade or hill and sitting at a stop light can't take off cleanly and stall the engine, roll back, hit the brake, try again and repeat until the green light turns red or they roll back into your car.

Bingo - we have a winner!!!

While living in Germany, all I drove were manual transmission vehicles. The city I lived in was known as the "city of 57 hills" - seemed like you were always at a stoplight/stop sign at the bottom of a hill.

And I was able to negotiate those hills frequently with an anemic 232 ci 6 banger in a full size Rambler military sedan, a 3 on the tree and an economy rear gear... Some of the time I actually had a "powerful" Chevy Belair with a 2bbl SBC, 3 on the tree and an economy rear end.

[Formulajones]

No, driving military vehicles is not relevant to the discussion in the context of gear ratio multiplying on your classic car. This is a classic car forum. In order for the test to be relevant, as I explained before, you need to drive your own car daily and put it in daily situations, put 5 digit mileage on it. Make the change, and then tell me there is no difference.
That's what I was referring to.

The problem is, is that 99% of the people on this forum are lucky if they even drive their cars 2,000 miles a year. Can't get good data points for much of anything like that and then share it on a forum and expect everyone to accept it.

So until you, or anyone else wants to get in these classics and daily drive them for years and 10's of thousands of miles, then I'll stick to what I know works and enjoy what I'm doing.

If it's working for you, that's great. Just enjoy the car and have fun with it. That's what this hobby is about.

[The Champ]

I guess having put 40,000+ miles on my '64 GTO doesn't qualify me to talk about manual transmissions and old cars.

Thanks for letting me know that, FJ...

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I guess having put 40,000+ miles on my '64 GTO doesn't qualify me to talk about manual transmissions and old cars.

Thanks for letting me know that, FJ...

You're still missing the point.

First, you haven't mentioned anywhere in this thread that you've driven 40,000 miles in your car till now. Second, with what ratios? Since you've been changing gear ratios, how many miles since the change? Are you daily driving it? When you changed you didn't notice a difference? That's the part I'm having a hard time believing. Especially the change of almost a full point. And if you aren't noticing any differences, then why do you want to spend the money on a M23Z with a 2.99 first gear? Lots of details being left out here.

[Tom Vaught]

I have put 40,000 miles on my 64 GTO after I came to Michigan, 1971.
Lots of changes along the way with the 4.33 gears, 2.56 gears, the POS 12 bolt, the Ford rear with the original Trans Am Gears, before I installed the 2.75 gears.

Point being, in each case I could still drive the car without needing a 10 to 1 gear multiplier and the vehicle did what it needed to do. The 4.33 gear was a city only College deal and it never went on the road except when I made the trip to Detroit and consumed a full tank of good gas going that 150+ miles and not getting run over by the trucks and other people doing 70+ mph. No desire to pay or use a full tank of gas on a 150 mph road trip. Tenny has that rear now in the Wangers GTO.
Tom V.

[Formula jg]

footjoy,
I read this entire thread and may have missed it but please provide carb specs if you know them, preferably mfg, cfm, pri and sec main jet, HSAB.

[Tom Vaught]

The thread went south in Post #5 with miss-information about drivelines and gear ratios.
Post #53 by the same individual contributes nothing to the Post #1 timing question.
Basically all of the other posts have to do with correcting the miss-information in Post number 5.

What does carb specs have to do with the ignition timing.
You always set the ignition timing to the correct specs before you mess with the carburetor.

Tom V.

[Chief of the 60's]

The way I see it, it looks like Posts #17 & #21

Carry on

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I have put 40,000 miles on my 64 GTO after I came to Michigan, 1971.
Lots of changes along the way with the 4.33 gears, 2.56 gears, the POS 12 bolt, the Ford rear with the original Trans Am Gears, before I installed the 2.75 gears.

Point being, in each case I could still drive the car without needing a 10 to 1 gear multiplier and the vehicle did what it needed to do. The 4.33 gear was a city only College deal and it never went on the road except when I made the trip to Detroit and consumed a full tank of good gas going that 150+ miles and not getting run over by the trucks and other people doing 70+ mph. No desire to pay or use a full tank of gas on a 150 mph road trip. Tenny has that rear now in the Wangers GTO.
Tom V.

Not forgetting the fact you're running a nash 5 speed with a 3.27 first gear. That isn't too bad with a 2.75 rear, giving you a 9:1 overall effective ratio. I never stated anyone needs a 10:1, it's just what I prefer as a minimum, however in the high 8's and low 9's is doable.

What you have is probably about as good as it will get on either end of the spectrum without actually using an overdrive, but it's still an aftermarket trans with a special 1st gear setup which is almost doing the same thing. It works well enough.

[Formulajones]

Carb specs become a player with the overdrives, once the timing is nailed down. That really becomes an issue when it was mentioned in one of the earlier posts about low rpm cruising, and how low was too low or how guys can't get away with much below 1500 rpms, some on the forum don't even want to use overdrive below 65 etc etc.....

That's just simply more tuning needed, and in most cases, if you get in depth with the carb idle, off idle and transition circuits you can make just about any engine very happy at very low rpm cruising, even engines with pretty aggressive cam timing in them. I've shown how it's possible with a 254 at .050 cam in a 302, so it's certainly doable with a big 455 and 230 @ .050 cam that most guys here run. Getting this part right will have an affect on gas mileage, as much as getting the timing right, and if done correctly no worries about detonation, lugging, chugging or other drivability issues.

Most guys just adjust the idle mixture, hope the jetting is okay, and run it down the road. That's understandable as tuning carbs is really becoming a lost art.

[footjoy]

Originally Posted by footjoy

It was determined that my last engine was not burning all of the gas and carboned up the heads and and pistons.

So I would like to ask those have overdrives where is your timing at.

At 70 mph I am turning 2300 rpms. Where should my timing be at that point.

Part throttle most of the time.

Thanks

Greg

Driveline specs

400/040
#13 Heads
2801 Summit cam
Pontiac Tri power
2004R Trans
3.73 positraction

I am having a distributor built and I wanted to know how to set it up.

The car is a cruiser 75 mph 2400 rpms

My previous engine was a low compression 400 quick fuel 4 barrel the car did not perform at all and was full of carbon even in the intake. after 2000 miles gave up on Horse power just want to cruise as efficient as I can.

So I thought maybe I didn't have the dist set up right.
12 initial 12 vacuum 21 mechanical.

And i was curious about when should it all come in.

And here we are.

[Tom Vaught]

Send a PM to Suntuned as he is a recognized expert of setting up a distributor for a Pontiac engine. Plus he has all of the equipment to properly check his work prior to sending out the part.

Tom V.

[69 Limelight]

I have a 69 GTO with 400, 9.5 CR, 279/287, 225/233 @ .050, 112 LSA, .516" lift I and E Hydraulic Roller cam, 3.23, with 26" tires. I run 14 degrees initial, 19 degrees (at crank) mechanical all in by 3000 RPM and a vacuum can that adds 15 degrees at 14" and starts at 7.5". I do a lot of cruising in OD at around 2000 RPM which puts my total timing around 42 degrees. In the higher speed limit states out west I run around 2400-2600 a lot and this puts my total timing around 44, 45 degrees. This has worked well for me for 35-40,000 miles from east coast to west coast, Canadian border to Gulf of Mexico at altitudes of sea level to over 10,000 feet. Like FJ says, carburetor has to be optimized to achieve this (mine was initially done by Cliff's High Performance but, I had to re-jet a little to get it to run smoothly without bucking at 1500 RPM and less in OD). Good luck

[footjoy]

Originally Posted by 69 Limelight

I have a 69 GTO with 400, 9.5 CR, 279/287, 225/233 @ .050, 112 LSA, .516" lift I and E Hydraulic Roller cam, 3.23, with 26" tires. I run 14 degrees initial, 19 degrees (at crank) mechanical all in by 3000 RPM and a vacuum can that adds 15 degrees at 14" and starts at 7.5". I do a lot of cruising in OD at around 2000 RPM which puts my total timing around 42 degrees. In the higher speed limit states out west I run around 2400-2600 a lot and this puts my total timing around 44, 45 degrees. This has worked well for me for 35-40,000 miles from east coast to west coast, Canadian border to Gulf of Mexico at altitudes of sea level to over 10,000 feet. Like FJ says, carburetor has to be optimized to achieve this (mine was initially done by Cliff's High Performance but, I had to re-jet a little to get it to run smoothly without bucking at 1500 RPM and less in OD). Good luck

69 Limelight my numbers are very similar on timing. What mph are you doing at 2000 and 2500 rpm?

Thanks
Greg

[Navy Horn 16]

If you really want to confuse yourself, set your initial timing at 12 or 14, both of which are common. Then hook up you vacuum advance and see how much total timing you have in at 2000 and 2500 RPM... It will be way more than you think.

The "all in" number that people talk about is setting centrifugal advance only. If you think you have to much or to little timing at cruise, you are going to have to get an adjustable vacuum advance can. BTW, if you had carbon build up in your motor from low RPM cruise, it's probably because you were rich on your AFR. Check that before going down this rabbit hole.

[footjoy]

Originally Posted by Navy Horn 16

If you really want to confuse yourself, set your initial timing at 12 or 14, both of which are common. Then hook up you vacuum advance and see how much total timing you have in at 2000 and 2500 RPM... It will be way more than you think.

The "all in" number that people talk about is setting centrifugal advance only. If you think you have to much or to little timing at cruise, you are going to have to get an adjustable vacuum advance can. BTW, if you had carbon build up in your motor from low RPM cruise, it's probably because you were rich on your AFR. Check that before going down this rabbit hole.

Navy Horn
funny you should bring that up. Today at 3:30 central time we were working on those numbers

With vacuum hooked up 12 initial 17 vacuum advance and 21 mechanical

The rpms are what it showed at 70 mph and 60 mph

2500 rpm 48 advance

2000 rpm 44 advance

No vacuum advance

2500 30.5 advance

2000 26 advance

I don't know if anything can be determined by these numbers but with .67 OD and 3.73 gears= 2.49 final gear. MPG was in single digits

Greg

[ta man]

I think you have carb issues..no way you should be in single digits for mpg...are your plugs black?