[Pete D]

I have three blocks that look like they have been sleeved. Protrusions at the bottom of the case. One is a 69 400 block, two are 64 blocks, one of which codes out to a 64 4 speed GTO block.

I have a fourth block, a 66 421, that has the cylinders even with the bottom of the case.

The questions are, 1) Has anyone heard of sleeving an entire block? 2) If the block has been sleeved, can it be re-sleeved back to standard bore? The 64 GTO block is already 0.030 over.

[b-man]

Does it have some sort of damage that won’t allow it to clean up at +.040” or +.060” ?

I do remember PAW (long out of business) used to offer V8 blocks sleeved back to standard size. From what I’ve read here on the forums sleeving all 8 holes is really not the best option as it compromises the strength of the block.

[Brian Baker]

1.) Yes, I have seen all 8 cylinders in a block (both factory and aftermarket iron) sleeved. It is quite expensive however when adding up all 8 sleeves, and unless you are saving a block for a concours numbers matching restoration, I wouldn't consider it.

2.) Yes, it can be sleeved back to standard bore. As with any block getting sleeved, whether it's one cylinder or all, I would recommend filling the coolant jackets in the block at least halfway up the cylinders. When I had one cylinder in a 455 sleeved once, I filled the block to the bottom of the water pump holes.

[Pete D]

I have access to a sonic wall tester, but the issue is how accurate will it be with a sleeved cylinder? If I recall correctly the hole is bored for an interference fit and then the sleeve is chilled to shrink it for installation. Now there are two surfaces for the transducer to "ping" off of. It might confuse the checker.

The block's casting dates and cylinder head casting dates are within a month so together with the block code it seems like it would be worthwhile to put it back in service.

More measurements are being taken to see if 0.040 will clean it up. Taking it out to 0.060 is nervous time. Would rather not if it can be brought back to standard.

Ohio crank is making a forging for this engine and Crower is making forged stock Pontiac dimension rods. Just got done assembling a set of Mike Wasson Tri-power carb and intake for this engine.

These parts are going in because the stock crank is already 0.030 under and while it is apart only the best parts are going back in.

Why is it apart? Long story for another thread.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Pete D

I have three blocks that look like they have been sleeved. Protrusions at the bottom of the case.

Ideally, the sleeve sits on a "shelf" of original block material near the bottom of the bore. The shelf prevents the sleeve from migrating down the cylinder wall under compression from the head and the fire-ring of the head gasket.

No shelf...I'd be VERY suspicious of that block. Sounds like it was sleeved by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

[steve25]

The pre 67 block where called thick wall, but that was only in terms of the outside case walls , not the cylinder walls.

The 400 motor should have started life with the thickest cylinder walls of all of your blocks, and since you can get hold of a sonice tested I would prove that out!

Some 389 motors can go up to .090"over for a hot street motor as I did with one that I had for a ton of years, but if your building for compression ratios over 10.5 to one or hp numbers in excess of 500 then as posted above I would do atleast a half fill on the block if your going for .090" over.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Ideally, the sleeve sits on a "shelf" of original block material near the bottom of the bore. The shelf prevents the sleeve from migrating down the cylinder wall under compression from the head and the fire-ring of the head gasket.

No shelf...I'd be VERY suspicious of that block. Sounds like it was sleeved by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

This very thing happened to a friend of mine that built a 350 chevy for another stock car racer friend, he did it for free too. The sleeve had no ledge left on the block to hold it in place, and during the first night the engine was in the car the sleeve started it's decent into the block, all the while breaking apart as the crank counterweights hammered the sleeve, and block to pieces, totally destroying the engine during the feature race. The owner/driver wouldn't back off of it even though it was smoking and slowing down, maybe some of the parts could have been saved if he had. When it finally scattered there wasn't a thing but the cylinder heads, and the intake manifold that were salvageable.

The guy that bored the block was unfamiliar with installing a sleeve and bored it the same way he would have bored it oversize for a larger piston, all the way through to the crankcase. A lot of hot tempers over that fiasco. Although it wasn't the fault of my friend, the machine shop took no blame for the mistake. I have no idea if the two former friends ever got past the engine blowing up. Last I knew they weren't speaking, and this was probably 25-30 years ago.

Be aware of what can happen if the sleeve doesn't have a ledge to rest on at the bottom of the cylinder.

On engines designed with replaceable sleeves, (usually diesels) there is usually a flange of the top that sits into a recess on the top of the block, sandwiches between the block and the cylinder head that locates it. Most automotive engines don't have room for a flanged sleeve and must have the step at the bottom to locate the sleeve. Without that step, the sleeve is free to move downward causing the mayhem I already outlined.

Sleeving all the cylinders in a block is risky as it severely compromises the strength of two adjacent cylinders. This very topic was discussed within the last year, and one of the members that was an machinist, said the would never do more than 50% 0f the cylinders in any block, and no two cylinders adjacent to each other, FWIW.

[KEN CROCIE]

Schurkey, Sirrotica : X2. Gotta have a ledge.

[Pete D]

Looks like it, but I am not sure if there is a shelf for it to sit on.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Ideally, the sleeve sits on a "shelf" of original block material near the bottom of the bore. The shelf prevents the sleeve from migrating down the cylinder wall under compression from the head and the fire-ring of the head gasket.

No shelf...I'd be VERY suspicious of that block. Sounds like it was sleeved by someone who didn't know what they were doing.

100% agree with the quote above. If there is no shelf, combined with a bore that may not be perfectly straight, the sleeve will migrate downward. Can the sleeves be cut out and new ones installed? Yes. Almost anything can be done with enough time and money invested. If the original sleeve was a thin wall style, possibly a thicker wall replacement sleeve could be used to re-establish the shelf for it to sit on if there is material left in the block. But this may open up a substantial portion of the water jacket, leaving only the deck to support it. It can be complicated. The block will never be as good as it was without any sleeves, period. It really depends on what the final use will be for the car/engine. If it's going from a trailer to a show field, putting around on the street for a weekend cruise, it will be fine with a bunch of unsupported sleeves. If it's going to be a weekend warrior or raced, it won't last long.
I recently installed 8 sleeves in a 1964 street hemi, numbers matching aluminum front end car. In addition to the sleeves the block had multiple cracks between freeze plugs and a chunk missing from the lower case where a connecting rod or 2 decided to leave the party. Stitched the whole damn mess back together and ran it on the dyno to 6000 RPM. It didn't leak and made just under 500 HP. Owner was happy but I wouldn't trust it back to track duty. He had over 5K just in bare block repair. To each his own.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by Pete D

Looks like it, but I am not sure if there is a shelf for it to sit on.

Looks like that cylinder is offset bored?

[Pete D]

The accuracy of the tested was verified with a caliper by measuring the cylinder wall through a freeze plug hole and then comparing readings. This was done several times to get repeatability. They agreed to within 0.010. So at worst a 10 %error.

[54nomore]

Originally Posted by Pete D

Looks like it, but I am not sure if there is a shelf for it to sit on.

I do not believe that is a sleeve. Have seen many blocks cast this way.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 54nomore

I do not believe that is a sleeve. Have seen many blocks cast this way.

I agree, I've seen a bunch of Pontiac blocks from the crankcase side. and it looks just like all the other ones I've had, and worked on for customers.

I do not believe you're looking at a sleeved block in the picture already posted, it's a normal Pontiac casting.

[Pete D]

is this block good for a daily driver, sleeved or not? It will not be "raced" and is not intended to be a trailer queen. Just driven like a 64 would be in 1964. Street driven with occasional stop light contests. The only diff from stock specs will be an 068 cam.