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Old 11-30-2022, 10:08 PM
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Default Lifter Tick and Adjustment Methods

My LeMans has annoying lifter tick. It’s a CC HR cam and I believe it has CC Hydraulic roller lifters but trying to confirm. Cliff has posted about bottoming out lifters and then backing out a specific amount. Has anyone else here tried that and reduced the ticking?

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'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project

Last edited by grivera; 11-30-2022 at 10:25 PM.
  #2  
Old 12-01-2022, 07:22 AM
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Are all of them making noise?

Just one bank?

Only Exh valve noise?

Has this noise been since day one, or has it just recently started?

If you know for sure that is a hydro roller Cam then how could you not know if it was making usage of roller lifters?

Is this a new motor to you that you have no real history on?

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Old 12-01-2022, 07:43 AM
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Assuming they are adjusted correctly to begin with?

2 things people easily miss on adjustment when using 7/16 stud is that one full turn is only .050" preload and most do the half turn method as that is what is preached everywhere. Unfortunately that yields .025" preload on a 7/16-20 stud and that's not enough. I'd guess those lifters will want at least .035-.040" to start.

2nd thing is using aluminum heads will decrease preload (increase lash) when warm so an additional .010" or so of preload is a good idea.

I'd start from there first and see what that gets ya.

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Old 12-01-2022, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25stevem View Post

If you know for sure that is a hydro roller Cam then how could you not know if it was making usage of roller lifters?
he's just saying hes not sure of the brand being CC, not that he doesnt know if they are roller lifters...

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Old 12-01-2022, 10:32 AM
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without knowing what brand or version of roller lifters they are, its hard to know what the manufacturer suggests for preload, the original CC roller lifters called for 1 full turn past zero lash, not sure if they took into account 7/16-20 rocker studs, but the 2nd "S" versions called for only 1/2 turn. same for hyd FT lifters, some call for 1 turn some call for 1/2 or even 1/4, helps to know what they are or just play with settings.

or try cliffs bottomed out then back off 1 turn. he has done that on his car & said it worked with no other issues, im sure others have done it too.

on my CC roller cam/lifters i went with the 1/2 turn for the "S" lifters & they are very quiet, on a hot summer day after some hard driving fully heat soaked they will get just a slight tick but nothing major, im sure thats the alum heads expanding, i plan to try adding maybe 1/4 turn to see if that changes, if not will try cliffs way.. or just leave them as is since it doesnt really bother me majority of the time.

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Old 12-01-2022, 11:17 AM
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I thought this was Cliff’s method but maybe wrong.

I ended up counting turns as I tightened until the lifter bottomed out, then backed out half that amount. Worked well for me.

Murf

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Old 12-01-2022, 11:17 AM
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Thanks all - I know most of the history on the engine as in it is a pretty fresh rebuild with about 400 miles, 4.25 stroker crank, # 16 iron heads. Even if I learn they are Comp Cams lifters, I won't know if they are the S version unless I pull the valley pan. Not knowing the recommended preload sucks and is the reason I am asking if Cliff's method would be best to try. A friend sold me the car and he had another fella build the engine. He gave me a bunch of receipts but the roller lifters aren't on there. The cam specs are 230/236, .510/.521, 114 LSA and it has 1.5 HS rockers. I'm using 10W30 conventional oil fwiw.

The noise is mainly from the passenger side so it very well could be one or two lifters on that side. I pulled the valve cover and didn't feel any that were "squishy" when pushing down on the rockers.

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Old 12-01-2022, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grivera View Post
Thanks all - I know most of the history on the engine as in it is a pretty fresh rebuild with about 400 miles, 4.25 stroker crank, # 16 iron heads. Even if I learn they are Comp Cams lifters, I won't know if they are the S version unless I pull the valley pan. Not knowing the recommended preload sucks and is the reason I am asking if Cliff's method would be best to try. A friend sold me the car and he had another fella build the engine. He gave me a bunch of receipts but the roller lifters aren't on there. The cam specs are 230/236, .510/.521, 114 LSA and it has 1.5 HS rockers. I'm using 10W30 conventional oil fwiw.

The noise is mainly from the passenger side so it very well could be one or two lifters on that side. I pulled the valve cover and didn't feel any that were "squishy" when pushing down on the rockers.

being its that fresh of a build, could you have your friend contact or refer you to the other fella to ask what lifters they are. or, if you know the date it was built that could narrow down the version of lifter since the original versions havent been sold for at least 5-6 years now.

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Old 12-01-2022, 12:01 PM
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With the build being fresh, here's something to try.

Run a can of seafoam in the crankcase at idle for a bit and on a short drive. Bottom out the lifters after and re-adjust them, then change the oil/filter.

Many of these parts come off the assembly line with water based cleaners and solvents that can cause some sludge in the lifter body. It's what Lunati directed me to do with my set of noisy lifters.

It may or may not do anything for you, but it's something cheap that can be tried without needing to open up the engine.

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Old 12-01-2022, 12:23 PM
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Yep - the build was wrapped up in summer of 2021. I have the JBP receipt for the cam as it was a last minute change in plans but it doesn’t include lifters. I’m waiting on my friend to report back. He is an older fella and wasn’t involved in the build much. And he was very trusting of the builder. It’s a strange relationship which has made getting some info difficult.

Thanks for the tips Jason!

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project

Last edited by grivera; 12-01-2022 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 12-01-2022, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf View Post
I thought this was Cliff’s method but maybe wrong.

I ended up counting turns as I tightened until the lifter bottomed out, then backed out half that amount. Worked well for me.

Murf
Did you have to wait long for the lifters to bleed out on their way to bottoming out?

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 12-01-2022, 03:29 PM
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with the lifter on the base of the cam, put a .020 feeler gauge between the valve stem and tip of the rocker. bottom out the lifter, then pull out the gauge. done.

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Old 12-01-2022, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grivera View Post
Did you have to wait long for the lifters to bleed out on their way to bottoming out?
You know, I’ve read people asking / talking about that but it didn’t seem to be much of a deal to me.

Right or wrong what I did was slowly tighten the nut until I could feel it come up against the much stiffer valve spring pressure. It seemed very noticeable to me when you bottomed out the lifter. From there I just backed out half of that amount. Seemed to work OK for me.

After thinking about it, I think Cliff said he he bottomed the lifter with the appropriate feeler gauge between the valve & rocker. That seems easier & maybe next time I’ll do that.

Have fun with it.
Murf

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Old 12-01-2022, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Meaney View Post
with the lifter on the base of the cam, put a .020 feeler gauge between the valve stem and tip of the rocker. bottom out the lifter, then pull out the gauge. done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf View Post
You know, I’ve read people asking / talking about that but it didn’t seem to be much of a deal to me.

Right or wrong what I did was slowly tighten the nut until I could feel it come up against the much stiffer valve spring pressure. It seemed very noticeable to me when you bottomed out the lifter. From there I just backed out half of that amount. Seemed to work OK for me.

After thinking about it, I think Cliff said he he bottomed the lifter with the appropriate feeler gauge between the valve & rocker. That seems easier & maybe next time I’ll do that.

Have fun with it.
Murf
Thank you both

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
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'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 12-01-2022, 08:37 PM
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My thoughts.
If you have not made any adjustments...yet.
See if you can locate the noise makers. Tighten them down, say another 1/2 to 5/8 of a turn, see if your noises go away.

We know the problem is a potential loose lash situation. Very unlikely lash is too tight, valves would be hanging open, engine would not run well.

The difficult thing you may run into, is the lifters being pumped up and not bleeding off easily. If you want to tackle adjusting all the valves, for peace of mind. I'd try to find a lifter that is bled down (I've not had good fortune doing this). Start tightening the nut when you know the lifter plunger IS at its upper most position in the lifter body. Count the number of turns it takes to bottom out the plunger in the lifter body. This will tell you and us how much plunger travel you have in the lifter body.

This shell game with Pontiac lifters, in the last few years has only confused me, any time HR lifters are spoken of, here...

Knowing your lifter plunger travel will help.

I was putting together the 350 Pontiac engine, years ago. I did NOT like the arbitrary lash adjustments that the bottle neck studs were giving me ( HFT cam). I talked to my engine builder about it. He said you only need the adjustment to be some where in the middle.

Knowing your amount of plunger, you COULD start your adjustment from the top. It could help your situation. You'd know fairly close to where your adjustment, actually is!!!

My biggest concern doing this, is adjusting lifters that are full of oil. If I did this. I'd adjust ALL the valves. I'd bar the engine over a 1/4 of a turn at a time, so the valve springs can help squeeze the pumped up lifters down. A little bit at a time. I'd maybe do this till I had the engine rotated over 2-3 full rotations.

Not knowing how much valve to piston clearance your has, is why I'd do this. No sense in bending some valves with the starter motor!!!

Next!!!

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Old 12-01-2022, 11:41 PM
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Good post - the pistons have a 29cc dish to work with the #16 heads - hopefully that helps with P2V clearance

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
  #17  
Old 12-03-2022, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
With the build being fresh, here's something to try.

Run a can of seafoam in the crankcase at idle for a bit and on a short drive. Bottom out the lifters after and re-adjust them, then change the oil/filter.

Many of these parts come off the assembly line with water based cleaners and solvents that can cause some sludge in the lifter body. It's what Lunati directed me to do with my set of noisy lifters.

It may or may not do anything for you, but it's something cheap that can be tried without needing to open up the engine.
Did it help quiet down your Lunati lifters?

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 12-03-2022, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grivera View Post
Did it help quiet down your Lunati lifters?
Minimally. They still clack when my engine and engine oil is hot.

My engine only makes about 12psi of oil pressure at 800 rpm. It's just not enough to keep the lifters pumped up.

I have not tried Cliff's method on my Lunati's because it may require longer pushrods and I don't want to purchase new parts to bandaid these things. I'll go that route when I replace the lifters.

I don't have reliability issues with them, they're just really noisy at idle.

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Old 12-04-2022, 12:34 AM
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That's the other end of this dilemma that I didn't bother to mention.

Oil pressure and oil does play a small roll in the end result. We all know engines can live a happy life with low idle oil pressure, but it can have an affect on hydraulic lifter noise, especially these days with the internal tolerances and bleed down rates on these lifters that can be all over the place. Questionable bleed down rates are only exaggerated with low oil pressure at idle.

Also related is how many of these lifter companies used to preach that hydraulic roller lifters should be run with 10-30 oil. While I never found that necessary, that suggestion was years ago long before bleed down rates became an issue. Now with questionable internal tolerances I think it goes without saying.

Or how different brand oils may not hold their viscosity as well as others.

Maybe none of this will help, but looks like there can be a lot of things at play. Shouldn't be this way but it's what we have.

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Old 12-04-2022, 12:54 AM
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Thanks Jason

Larry- are you saying 10W30 is better when dealing with sloppy tolerances?

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'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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