[Cliff R]

I was talking to a long time customer couple of days ago who is deeply involved with camshafts and engine building.

We were talking about lifters for these engines. He told me that currently Topline are the only ones left that absolutely and for sure are USA made.

http://toplineauto.com/wp-content/up...on-Catalog.pdf

I'll add here that this is NOT the first time I've heard this, and that the other sources who have told me this were pretty reliable, but I typically stick to topics that I have DIRECT experience with as it helps to keep me out of trouble as my enemies and "fan club" miss no opportunities to roll me under the bus on the Forums. Even so now that I'm retired bad cases of CRS and even worse cases of DGS make it easier to stray off course a bit.

Anyhow, he also told me that the tolerances are and always have been very close and that they make more power on the dyno than any of the Mexican and offshore varities we are currently seeing on the market.

He uses and prefers the "S" or Slow-bleed offerings claiming that they take full advantage of the lobe profile and you end up with several benefits. One is that they make more power over the engines RPM range and also they do not go "stupid" at high RPM's loosing control of things (lifter crash).

I've witnessed the high RPM issues several times on the dyno but blamed it on the cam profile(s) and not the lifters being used.

So during the conversation I asked about Johnson lifters, which is a USA company but not affileated in any way that I know of with Hylift Johnson. He told me that Johnson is and has been importing and re-boxing lifters from out of the USA for some time now and to avoid them.

Of course being second hand information we have to take it as that, but it does bring up some interesting points as hardy a day goes by that we don't hear about someone loosing a camshaft during or shortly after "break-in", noisy valve train, etc, etc........

[sdbob]

Thank you for the information. I like reading your insights.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Good info Cliff, I wonder if the Elgin brand is using them since their Pontiac lifter is using "HL" 1951 "S" in the PN# #HL1951SPONL

I thought I had heard the Summit Brand and Rhoads brands were also but not sure anymore

[PAUL K]

Cliff did your customer tell you were Hy-lift sources their lifter bodies from? The USA foundry that cast them closed its door about two years ago. Causing the great lifter shortage of the 21st Century.

[AROWHED]

So is Johnson false advertising here with their Made in the USA claims?
https://johnsonlifters.com/Home.aspx

[Jay S]

Last I knew Hylift Johnson-Topline (HLJ) is working with a Foundry in Cleveland, Ohio, the switch took place in that 20’ time line Paul listed.

Johnson (not HLJ) quit making flat tappet lifters several year ago. I am pretty sure all Johnson machining is there in Michigan. I have seen different reports that the lifter bodies may be off shore..fwiw

To my knowledge HLJ has not been making the HR lifters for a few years for at least Pontiacs. I have know idea what their plans are for them. I have not heard of them making HR’s for any engine though for awhile, they have been out of stock.

The S lifter that was mentioned was a HR lifter made by HLJ. Every dyno pull I have seen from them they did great until they hit the rpm ceiling for what their plunger’s were good for, then the power goes south like any other HR lifter other than a very short travel set up. HLJ made some S lifters in flat tappets for other brands, I have never seen it offered for Pontiac. Would be AWESOME if they did.

[Cliff R]

My source claims that Johnson is using offshore components and that he has tested them for leak down rates and they are all over the place. He also mentioned "re-boxing", but that for sure is at attempt at fraud or missleading the customer base into thinking you are buying a better product, etc. Even with that said it's not the first time I've heard about USA companies reboxing offshore parts, or folks making offshore parts putting them in USA labeled boxes.

All rumor for sure, but hardly a day goes by here that I don't get an email or phone call from someone who lost a cam, or has issues with "noise" on a fresh rebuild, etc.

No mention of where Topline is sources of getting the lifter "bodies" from.

I don't consider any of this info gospel, but you have to pocket it away and if nothing else make sure you get good lifters for your next engine project.

I'd also add here that before Topline went out of business the first time we NEVER had any issues with cam lobes failing or any other problems in that area, including noise, etc. No "special" lubricants added to the oil, or break-in procedures needed, etc. Just fuel the carb, static time the distributor, fire them up and a few minutes around 1500rpms or so and good to go for the life of the engine.

Since the trace minerals were left out of lube oil (not an issue IMHO), and lifters sourced out from who knows where, plus the trend for "aggressive" lobe profiles, stiff valve springs, etc we've seen nothing but issues with these things. That's reality, and this thread may or may not help.......

[tom s]

Johnson only makes roller lifters now.Tom

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

So is Johnson false advertising here with their Made in the USA claims?
https://johnsonlifters.com/Home.aspx

That depends on the state they are in. Different states have different laws about that.

Some states allow "Made In USA" claims if the part is simply modified or assembled in some way in the state, even though the main body can come from China.

Other states only allow the "Made In USA" claim if the entire part from start to finish is done in the USA.

The same thing happens with cylinder heads. Many of them are cast in China now (Except Brodix that I'm aware of) But since machine work is done here in the states by most other head manufactures, as long as they live in one of those lenient states, they can claim "Made In The USA"

[jhein]

At least for now, it seems like it may be more what is available than anything else. I initially had a set of Morels for my motor but that was because I couldn't find anything else. Those had lots of negative reviews so I kept looking and eventually Butler had the Johnson reduced travel lifters available so I grabbed a set of those and sent the Morels back. The Johnsons are in the motor so we'll see. I will say they are very quiet, whatever that's worth. Standing right next to the motor on the dyno, really no lifter noise at all.

[Cliff R]

"Other states only allow the "Made In USA" claim if the entire part from start to finish is done in the USA."

How about "made in the USA from globally sources materials/components".....does that count?

How about "Country of Origin on box".......and they list about a dozen companies on one of the folds of the packaging when you open them up. Anyone remember when TRW starting doing that with engine rebuild components?......

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Other states only allow the "Made In USA" claim if the entire part from start to finish is done in the USA."

How about "made in the USA from globally sources materials/components".....does that count?

How about "Country of Origin on box".......and they list about a dozen companies on one of the folds of the packaging when you open them up. Anyone remember when TRW starting doing that with engine rebuild components?......

I'm not positive but I'd have to guess that materials within the product in question that is sourced elsewhere doesn't have any bearing. For instance a lot of aftermarket heads use Ferrea valves and I believe those are made in Brazil. Great valve, but not American made. From what I have read, depending on the state, it's the end product finished in the US that allows the "Made In USA" claim skate along the fence, but not all states allow that.

[PAUL K]

Don't know much about this but Scat got a big fine for advertising their crankshafts are made in the USA, because they were only machined here. Around the same time our Government gave CAT a free pass, letting them copy Scat's product line, catalog and part numbers even though Scat complained.... Fwiw, info from one of the previous owners of Scat.

[Cliff R]

I see labels that say "Built in the USA from domestic and globally sources materials", so at least they are assembling here, but are some of the components being used not as good as they could be?

Something else to ponder on. Just because it's made offshore, China, Brazil, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Italy, etc, doesn't mean that its an inferior product. Believe me those Countries and others have the capabilties of making parts just as good as we could do here........just not at the price point we are willing to pay for them...........

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Don't know much about this but Scat got a big fine for advertising their crankshafts are made in the USA, because they were only machined here. Around the same time our Government gave CAT a free pass, letting them copy Scat's product line, catalog and part numbers even though Scat complained.... Fwiw, info from one of the previous owners of Scat.

Isn't Scat in California??

Been a long while since I was reading about this stuff, I can't remember exactly which states had what but I think California was one of the states that don't allow "Made In USA" claims unless it's all manufactured in that state.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I see labels that say "Built in the USA from domestic and globally sources materials", so at least they are assembling here, but are some of the components being used not as good as they could be?

Something else to ponder on. Just because it's made offshore, China, Brazil, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Italy, etc, doesn't mean that its an inferior product. Believe me those Countries and others have the capabilties of making parts just as good as we could do here........just not at the price point we are willing to pay for them...........

I agree, but you know how the mentality is around here, if it's not USA it's junk, or, I'll only buy USA product. You hear that one a lot. LOL

Well those goofy laws that vary by state sure seem to leave a lot of grey area.


On the flip side there is a lot of junk out there too, we all know that.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Isn't Scat in California??

Been a long while since I was reading about this stuff, I can't remember exactly which states had what but I think California was one of the states that don't allow "Made In USA" claims unless it's all manufactured in that state.

Yes they are. When the owner told me that story he also noted the Cat copying their product line should've been enforced by the same department that fined them.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Yes they are. When the owner told me that story he also noted the Cat copying their product line should've been enforced by the same department that fined them.

That's interesting. There is a lot of copying of head castings done in China too with various different names attached.

[Cliff R]

"I agree, but you know how the mentality is around here, if it's not USA it's junk, or, I'll only buy USA product. You hear that one a lot. LOL"

There are a few things in this World that are a LOT better if you buy them from Sweden or Germany, etc.

Chainsaws are one of them, but when you say things like that there are so many brand loyalists out there that it just starts a bunch of bickering, almost as bad as if you told a Ford truck lover a Chevy was a lot better product....etc...etc....

[jhein]

It's definitely a global economy. Most Stihl products sold in the US are assembled here, but parts come from all over.

I have a Toyota Sequoia. I jokingly say it's not really a Japanese car, it's a cheap American knock off made in Indiana. LOL. And it probably has lots of parts from China.