[John V.]

I have had good luck with Fram Ultra filters. I know a lot of guys are anti-Fram. I know I have easier choices.

But I'm just curious if anybody has used a Fram Ultra on any traditional Pontiac V8?

Fram does not list one, only the PH-25 Extra Guard. The Wix with anti-drainback valve is 51258.

I did some research and found the closest dimensional match to the Wix is the Ultra XG9837 (the XG3675 is inexplicably identical). It is a bit shorter and a bit smaller in diameter but the mounting thread is the same and the gasket dimension is pretty close.

Any reason to believe it wouldn't work?

[Chief of the 60's]

Contact Fram's tech line for a part number - 888-553-3726

Ask if they have an HP number filter.

[64speed]

Why are you stuck on FRAM? PF24 AC DELCO if you want a cheap filter

[John V.]

Brad, I'm pretty confident in the engine builder, I don't think blowby is my issue. Doesn't seem to be leaking from anywhere else. I would guess a lot of blowby would show up in the mesh of my original '64 push on oil fill cap but not in evidence, mesh not soaked, and no oil spraying out of the stack that I've noticed.

The gaskets are not cork, they are black so likely neoprene. If the gasket set I supplied was used, they should be Fel-Pro. I do not know if any sealer was used, I'm trying to find out.

I've done some searching on this forum. Others have had valve cover leaks and some advice on best technique to avoid leaks given. RTV to glue to covers, Hylomar Universal Blue between the head and cover.

Worst leakage seems to be at the center so I'm really thinking my valve covers aren't flat. Some advice too about how to flatten them out too.

Guess I gotta start removing them. Was hoping to just drive it but too much oil is making a mess underneath, I can't just ignore it.

[Sirrotica]

I use a straight edge on the sheetmetal to check for bowing, distortion. I use a bench vise opened up wide enough to set both edges of the valve cover on to work the sheetmetal to straighten it. That's how I do it, seems to work for me for many years.

I use RTV to glue the gasket to the valve cover, but you can use whatever you choose to. The heads are milled flat on the sealing surface so that side isn't the problem, the flexible valve cover is the place leaks usually happen.

If you use cast aluminum covers the problems are lessened, but I realize you're not going to use anything other than a stock GM cover on your car.

One other thing, the builder could have done a perfect job, but detonation can break a ring, or a ring land in a second. I have zero idea of what compression ratio you have, but trying to run the stock compression ratio with today's fuels can break parts that would have been fine with the fuels from the 60s.

My first experience was when trying to run a premium leaded fuel engine was in the late 70s. I was trying to run a perfectly running 65 Bonneville 389 on the only fuel available. In a street car I ruined it in less than a week because of the low octane.

Around the same time I also blew a hole in a forged piston, fresh 428 HO stock car engine in one night of racing. Every piston in the engine was ruined but one. I even doctored the fuel with octane booster, what a waste of time and money. I discussed the problem with Nunzi, and went to low compression 71 400 heads, problem solved.

FWIW. Your builder may have addressed that, when he built the engine, and if he did you should have no worries. It was a suggestion for something to look at because I simply don't know all the facts in your particular engine build.

Wishing you luck finding the leak, and correcting it.

[John V.]

Brad, thanks for all the input.

You mentioned earlier of a simple test to check for crankcase pressure.

Can you describe the method? Or maybe a link?

I know anything is possible but aside from the external oil mess, I’ve had no issues.

No tail pipe smoke, no ugly noises. It starts easily and idles nicely. It is a pretty stock build. We didn’t do anything specific to reduce the stock cr. IIRC we went .060 over which I think results in slightly less static cr if the chamber cc stayed the same. Do I have that right? Still, if it is something I can do easily, I will check for excessive crankcase pressure.

Had to chuckle when you mentioned the cast aluminum valve covers. You know I’m kinda anal about originality but I actually like the M/T cast covers or really old school Offy cast covers I believe exist and I have thought about them from time to time. I think the chrome Factory covers look cool too though so always come back to them. 😁 Just wish Pontiac had used more aluminum, the engine is just so heavy.

[Dick Boneske]

Fram's standard filters are cheap--cheaply made, but the largest selling filters made today. I've used them many times for years with not a single problem.

But, all the anti-Fram rants I see completely ignore the higher quality filters they sell. There are Extra-Guard, Tough-Guard, Ultra Synthetic, and Racing. All of these meet or exceed OEM specs for oil filters.

I'm not attempting to create controversy, but believe we're worrying too much about oil filter choice. Wix, NAPA, and possibly some other premium filters--- I believe are manufactured in the US. I believe all others are manufactured outside the USA, including AC. The older AC filters I have are marked Made in USA, but now are made in Mexico.

I've read a number of oil filter tests. I recall one of them rated the Fram Extra Guard the best of all filters tested.

In any case, I believe oil choice is much more important than oil filter choice for our old Pontiacs. Flat tappet cams, as we all know, require zinc for extreme pressure lube. We know that Valvoline VR1 conventional or synthetic, Amsoil Racing, Penn Grade, Royal Purple, and others contain adequate zinc to protect flat tappet cams. If you're not sure, it's relatively simple to find a phone number to check with the manufacturer.

[John V.]

Thanks for all the replies. I realize this is a small sample so not surprised that nobody has ever tried the Ultra before.

Racing filters are not intended for street use from what I've understood. They allow high flow but don't filter so good.

The Ultra is intended for longer service intervals made possible by full synthetic oils. They include a metal screen to support the filter media during this extended change interval. I'm guessing other premium filters have similar screens but I know Ultra does.

The Ultra media can remove up to 99% of "dirt" at the specified micron size. It is superior media to the Extra Guard (PH-25) which I believe is rated for 95%. Again, I'm sure other premium filters offer similar superior filter media.

I spoke to Steven on the Fram Tech line. He confirmed what I already believed to be true about the Ultra vs. Extra Guard (metal screen, superior media), why I choose the Ultra for my daily drivers and have for many years.

He reviewed the dimensions of the XG9837 vs. the PH-25. He checked to see if they had an Ultra with the same base gasket of the PH-25 but they do not.

I then asked his opinion if the very small base gasket difference would likely matter. I realize there is no way for him to know for sure (and I'm not looking for an implied warranty). He explained that there is a lawn mower Ultra (I had reviewed the specs for it yesterday) that he said some people have tried on car engines, he understands that some people say it works and some say it doesn't due to some minor base gasket dimensional difference compared to whatever filter was specified for their engine.

Here is the base gasket differences:

Ultra XG9837 listed first, Extra Guard PH-25 listed 2nd.

ID: 2.453", 2.422" (Ultra has a BIGGER ID by 0.031" or 1/32")
OD: 2.766", 2.797" (Ultra has a SMALLER OD by 0.031" or 1/32")

Net result, the WIDTH of the Ultra Base Gasket is 0.156" (5/32") and the WIDTH of the Extra Guard Base Gasket is 0.188" (3/16").

Since the Ultra Base Gasket ID is bigger, there shouldn't be any interference in the oil flow path.

Hard to imagine that the narrower gasket width will prevent a good seal but that remains unknown.

The Ultra can OD is 2.98", the Extra Guard is 3.781". The Extra Guard can capacity is nominally 3/4 Qt., not discounting for the internals. The Ultra can capacity is nominally 1/2 Qt. I'm not gonna worry about 8 oz. of less oil capacity.

I also had Steven look at the XG3675. He confirmed that it does appear to be identical to the XG9837, he had no explanation for why. I asked if perhaps one didn't have the anti-drainback valve but he says all Ultra's include the ADBV. At another forum it was suggested that one of them originally lacked the ADBV which may or may not be true. He checked and both filters are in active production.

Call me crazy but I plan to try the Ultra XG9837 for my '64 GTO.

Dick, good advice on oil choices.

My go to is Mobil 1, Full Synthetic European Car Formula 0W-40, 1100 ppm zinc, 1000 ppm phosphorous.

[John V.]

Oil change in progress. Picked up the Ultra XG-9837 at my local Walmart (I planned to compare the XG-3675 side by side but they don't carry that one).

Anyway, the filter is definitely smaller but it installed fine.

But I have a question about the fill plug. My late model cars all have used a washer on the fill plug. Don't know when that got started or why it became necessary but I don't recall using a washer on the fill plug back in the day.

My engine builder had installed a brass washer on what I believe is an original fill plug. I don't know if it was already on the plug or if he added it.

Either way, it is an extremely tight fit. I had to hold it with pliers to remove or install it on the plug (it had partially backed off when I removed the plug from the pan). It also has a cup on the ID, not a flat washer, so that the cup would have to fit into the pan threads although the cup is pretty shallow. Not even sure how it would do that without digging into the threads.

Simple question, do I need to use a washer or should the plug seal without one?

[Sirrotica]

The original washer was nylon material from GM, and no they won't seal without a washer.

Link to Fel Pro washer that looks to be a rubber composite type material:

https://www.autozone.com/gaskets/eng...ULEQ&gclsrc=ds

Link to the nylon style OEM type:

https://www.autozone.com/external-en...lse&model=true

[Rich-Tripower]

Every drain plug on every car I've ever owned, older or newer, had some kind of a washer. Crushable aluminum, brass or copper or nylon.

[John V.]

Thanks guys. Proves my memory isn't perfect. Hopefully not Alzheimers just yet!

Will head to the auto parts store tomorrow.

[The Champ]

John

The two filters you asked about cross to the WIX 51522 and 51522XP respectively.

Both are primarily Chevy or Coporate V8 and V6 applications.

https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/In...%20XG3675&o=me

When you go to the link, the WIX part # will be a hotlink to the specs on that filter. When you go to that there will be a hot link to "All Applications".

[60sstuff]

Ok, I’m confused here.

What is a “fill plug” ???

I know of a “drain plug” which is located at the bottom of an engine.

An “oil fill cap” is up top that pushes on or twist on.

Both the (drain and fill) take a type of washer.

Chris

[John V.]

Champ, looks like Wix offers the XP for extended synthetic oil change intervals, seems like it has features similar to the Fram Ultra.

But the correct Wix filter and what was on my engine is the Wix 51258. Doesn’t look like they offer it in the XP line either so the 51522XP is a smaller filter, same as the Fram Ultra XG9837. If the Fram doesn’t leak I’ll be a happy camper using it. The Wix would be fine if you prefer that brand and if it also doesn’t leak.

Chris, sorry about that. I am dealing with a small leak from the Muncie Trans Fill Plug so I crossed myself up when referring to the oil pan drain plug.

But now I have a question, what type of washer is used with the standard ‘64 GTO push on oil fill cap?

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by John V.

But now I have a question, what type of washer is used with the standard ‘64 GTO push on oil fill cap?

My turn, I’m crossed up, sorry.

Both style ‘64 push on oil fill caps (breather and closed) don’t seem to be fitted with any washer.

Both style ‘65 twist oil fill caps (breather and closed) have a thin gasket.

Chris.

[John V.]

I'm actually surprised nobody questioned my choice of synthetic oil earlier. Lots of opinions surrounding synthetics. Mobil 1 has been around since the '70s. If they ever cautioned about causing leaks on the label I'm not aware, never read the label til today. Nothing on the Mobil 1 label about leaks now. Some opinions will claim that synthetics have a smaller chain molecule that will escape thru a seal or gasket more easily, Mobil 1 certainly doesn't believe it causes leaks though they do offer High Mileage versions that have additives intended to help condition old, worn seals and help reduce leaks and also to help prevent oil burning. Haven't used that version myself.

I use synthetic because I believe it is a superior oil. I've been using it for about 20 years now in all my vehicles. During that time, I started using synthetic in a few used vehicles I purchased and never had leaks.

'04 GP GTP supercharged 3.8L has always gotten synthetic since new, 150K miles, not a drop of leakage. '12 Honda Civic 1.8L with 150K miles same story. Only conventional oil either car has had was the factory fill. First several years I changed the GP at 4-5K. But then realized I was throwing away perfectly good oil. I used to change the Honda at about 9K miles when the Maintenance Minder computer said it was due. But soon realized that was also wasteful (the computer has no idea what kind of oil I'm using). With the Ultra filters I now go many more miles and change it no more than annually. I always check the oil level before changing it to watch for any usage. I've never had to add oil between changes. The GP usage has dropped since I retired but the Honda currently has 13K miles since last change and isn't due for a change until end of Nov. By then it should have about 20-22K. And I expect the stick will still read full just as it does today (yes, I just checked it). I keep a record of every change so have the evidence.

Just to be clear, my engine builder initially filled the engine after rebuild with Valvoline 20W-50 VR1 Conventional Racing Oil. He also put in a pint of Lucas Engine Break-In Additive, I assume for added zinc. And the Wix 51258 filter. Those were his choices. He only builds Pontiac engines, races a pretty spectacular Pontiac that is Pontiac powered (aftermarket block and heads), has built dozens and dozens of Pontiac engines, been doing it for decades also. He went with conventional on mine. So this is the first time the GTO will see synthetic. The leaks so far are on conventional. The leaking that I experienced after the change are not new, the stains and puddle of oil in my drip pan were occurring while I drove it last summer and while it sat over the winter. The only thing new is I've decided to track the leaking down and fix it.

Everybody can decide for themselves but my opinion is that my cars should get synthetic. They are too valuable to me for me to use a lesser oil.

So I don't consider my oil choice as an experiment. The Ultra Filter is an experiment. But I did my homework and was confident it would fit. Since the gasket dimension was a tad different as I outlined in an earlier post in this thread, the only question was whether the gasket would leak.

I will keep an eye on it once I resolve the valve cover leak but after a few minutes run time, I am very happy to see no leakage from the filter.

I want to use it because the Ultra is a superior filter by construction and media vs. the filters that are specified as available for our engines. As I mentioned earlier, the whole idea of the Ultra (same is true for the Wix XP line) is to be compatible with the extended oil change intervals that are now commonplace with new cars operating from the factory on full synthetic oil. These filters are designed and built to last longer.

Since neither Fram nor Wix offers their best filters for our 389 application, I did my own homework to see if I could make an Ultra work.

Oil choice aside, why wouldn't you want to install a better built filter on your 389? I am more concerned that a lesser filter would fail and ruin my engine.

[John V.]

Taking way too long to do this oil change.

Here is the brass or copper washer that I found on the drain plug when I pulled it.

You can see how it isn't a flat washer. Also, the ID is so tight I needed to grab it with pliers and turn a wrench on the plug to remove it (or install it).

[John V.]

At the NAPA website, I searched for '64 GTO Oil Drain Plug Gasket, they came back with 2 choices.

Both are Nylon.

Fel-Pro 70822, same as the one Brad linked from AutoZone.

The other was from NAPA Solutions p/n NOE 7041078.

My local store had both in stock. The Fel-Pro was in packaging that probably added a dollar to the price. Online it was priced at $1.33 but in the store it was more than $2.

The NOE was $0.79 online and in the store,

I chose it because it has a larger OD, 0.988" vs the Fel-Pro at 0.900".

See the pix, the NOE seems to be a perfect match for the OD of the plug flange and slid on easily over the threads.

Perfect size I think.

[Sirrotica]

John, probably what happened with the copper gasket was at sometime it was tightened more than it needed to be. Being that copper is very malleable, but has a low memory to return to original shape, it flattened out, narrowing the center hole ID so that it was tight on the plug. Just compare it to putting a solid piece of copper wire in a vise, it won't ever return to original form. Plastics done the same thing, many times return to original form, or close to original form.

In my career working on aerial lift machines, the rubbing blocks that guide boom sections as the slide in and out of each other are made of nylon, they last a long time being subjected to abrasives, and heavy loading when fully extended supporting a load. On some of the older machines they tried bronze rubbing blocks, but they wore out much more rapidly than the nylon ones. Now virtually every aerial lift has nylon blocks.

The nylon washers sometimes split from center to outside if over tightened, and as they age the nylon becomes more brittle. They don't flatten out as they aren't as malleable as the copper is and seem to have better memory to return to original dimensions. They seem to last quite along time though, it may outlive you and me............