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Old 01-03-2023, 11:00 AM
70TA-RAIII 70TA-RAIII is offline
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Default 1972 TA on BaT

Nice looking 72 TA on BaT: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...c-firebird-12/

As what seems to be the norm these days, there are several issues with the car (water temp gauge, RTS dash insert, rear spoiler end caps (one correct, one not), no sign of ever having A/C, etc.), but what I noticed was the block VIN stamp. The stamping starts with "X2N" and I was expecting "22N". Is X2N a known stamping for 72's?

John

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Old 01-03-2023, 12:12 PM
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Nice looking car. Does the drivers rear quarter look funny to you? In pic # 61 the line coming off the wheel flare going back looks wrong to me.

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Old 01-03-2023, 12:58 PM
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Blue interior car originally, full AC removal. Interesting to see where this one shakes out $

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Old 01-03-2023, 01:31 PM
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Love the color combo, highly doubt it began life as a M22 car...

6 areas of interest on this one... several of those points have been mentioned before.

1) factory AC charged on invoice copy, yet body build w no AC....
those of us that have been around a long time know of some very collectible 64-65 GTO's & later Dport RA GTO's that had factory AC added by owners. Fairly common in the mid to late 80's & know I'm not not the only vendor that provided AC system changeovers. On all of those legal swaps, the conversions were done by cutting out the face of the original cowl, along with bodywork.. Similar deals have been performed on numerous factory AC cars that an owner modified the face of the cowl to accept a factory heater setup. Where's this lead on any highly collectible auction car = Disclosue. What's going on should be noted, otherwise, the outer box needs to be removed & conf VIN noted.

2) VIN to body number span... 2N505476 fits in the 09D Norwood body build range, not 01B as noted on the auction cars trim tag. Why such a deal, read further. look closer at the pic of the trim tag, then look at the pic of several original '72 Firebird trim tags, easy to spot what's going on...

3) stamping of partial vin on the block, nuff said...

4) engine assembly number of ( 228159 does not fit for an early to late Fall of 71 WM engine build.

5) interestingly, the invoice copy notes ZS1 17-1535 & 9D at the bottom of the option lists.
also notes a 5 PCT car, this coincides with the 1/31/1972 ship date. Def some form of "Brasshat".

6) prev auction listings of near a decade ago noted this N505xxx T/A as a project with some concern.

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Old 01-03-2023, 02:36 PM
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Bought to flip, and flippers are bidding ...
Its probably a very nice driver.
The 5 speed most likely caused a large opening in the tunnel if not a very recent version modified for an F body.
Since it is on BAT, the price on a car like this might see dollars more than its worth. Subjectivity will sell it. These items are paint color, 5 speed ( love to see the install) , and interior condition. Flippers don't care about originality typically , which in this case is fine, its a #3 driver and should be driven, not stored away. I'm guessing 85k, and if it was white, 77k..

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Old 01-03-2023, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
Love the color combo, highly doubt it began life as a M22 car...

6 areas of interest on this one... several of those points have been mentioned before.

1) factory AC charged on invoice copy, yet body build w no AC....
those of us that have been around a long time know of some very collectible 64-65 GTO's & later Dport RA GTO's that had factory AC added by owners. Fairly common in the mid to late 80's & know I'm not not the only vendor that provided AC system changeovers. On all of those legal swaps, the conversions were done by cutting out the face of the original cowl, along with bodywork.. Similar deals have been performed on numerous factory AC cars that an owner modified the face of the cowl to accept a factory heater setup. Where's this lead on any highly collectible auction car = Disclosue. What's going on should be noted, otherwise, the outer box needs to be removed & conf VIN noted.

2) VIN to body number span... 2N505476 fits in the 09D Norwood body build range, not 01B as noted on the auction cars trim tag. Why such a deal, read further. look closer at the pic of the trim tag, then look at the pic of several original '72 Firebird trim tags, easy to spot what's going on...

3) stamping of partial vin on the block, nuff said...

4) engine assembly number of ( 228159 does not fit for an early to late Fall of 71 WM engine build.

5) interestingly, the invoice copy notes ZS1 17-1535 & 9D at the bottom of the option lists.
also notes a 5 PCT car, this coincides with the 1/31/1972 ship date. Def some form of "Brasshat".

6) prev auction listings of near a decade ago noted this N505xxx T/A as a project with some concern.
Thanks for pointing out what I also had noticed. Have been "sitting on the sidelines" wondering whether I should say anything or keep my trap shut. Most all the numbers are WAY out of sequence. which considering the lack of an A/C firewall or any other evidence of this body ever having had A/C makes me think this is a rebody.
In one sense that's okay if the bidders realize what they're bidding on. And perhaps the seller doesn't know these cars like we do to know things don't jive. But I feel sorry for anyone who may win this car thinking they're getting some thing that it simply isn't.

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Old 01-03-2023, 08:53 PM
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Came with a Unit Distributor, looks like it has a points distributor now.



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Old 01-03-2023, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhein View Post
Nice looking car. Does the drivers rear quarter look funny to you? In pic # 61 the line coming off the wheel flare going back looks wrong to me.
I agree. The contour of the body line is not sharp enough. Had the same issue on my ‘78 when new lowers were put on. I’m guessing at least that side had work done…

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Old 01-05-2023, 02:55 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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I don't know ANY personal history on this particular car.
Many historical type things are already obvious, as noted by others, and they are right about those things.

Just want to add some clarity about the Invoice disproving the trim tag.
1. It was a Zone Brass car in Florida (FL license charge)
2. They used cars for 3 months or 3000 miles whichever came first (general rule of protocol).
3. How does a car body get jigged up , built , delivered to a Florida Zone Office and used for 3 months or 3000 miles , then resold to a dealer -- all in a 2 week period ?
The answer - it never happened - not even on Star Trek.

Best educated guess is they had to have a repop trim tag made for the car , and used a general rule of thumb of 2-3 weeks before the Shipping Date on Invoice.

But ,,, they didn't understand this Invoice and it shows out loud.
This vehicle had previous engagement before going to Coggin Pontiac

Just backing up the data that oPh provided.
Its concrete info

Repop trim tag - not a death toll , but bad dating hurts A LOT.
Toss in the goofy VIN stamp on block , the ReStamped CARTER carb , probable rebody with Non-AC shell ,,,, car feels extremely dirty .
But it looks clean ,,, especially for a Florida car

If someone buys it without connecting the dots beforehand, they will be a broken man when the dots do connect later.

Someone fkkd up everything they were trying to cover up.

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Old 01-05-2023, 01:27 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Who else thinks the missing AC just slipped through the cracks on the invoice billing ?

We have seen adjusted invoices for missing components before.
Usually it is lesser pertinent type things.
AC is a major expense and hard to not notice - especially in Florida.

That would mean the Florida Brass never realized it was hot, forgot he ordered AC, and never fulfilled his duty to alert PMD about it.
And then Coggin Pontiac never noticed it, or just said no big deal and just paid PMD for the AC anyway.

That would have DEFINITELY been caught and corrected on the Invoice of this car.
Let there be No Doubt About It.
That was tall coin back then.

These invoices were the billings sent to the dealers for cars they purchased from PMD. Cars were not free or just scattered across dealership lots.
Dealers selected the cars and paid PMD for them.
Regardless if for stock inventory or customer order.
The dealer paid PMD , the buyer paid the Dealership.
101

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Old 01-05-2023, 02:06 PM
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BVZ, you can rest assure Coggin Pontiac was billed, & paid for an AC system that blew nice & cold on that particular '72 T/A after GM zone brass hat service, and for final sale nearly 4 months after leaving Norwood Assembly.

Whoever bought this project in the mid 00's, & shipped it west & then performed the initial "restoration" near 35 years after it was originally assembled would be the one(s) you would need to pin down on the non AC attributes of the car as so "restored".

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Old 01-05-2023, 03:29 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Some of the things that guys post on BaT gets really weird and bent.
I don't check many of their auctions unless they involve a Pontiac and get posted on here somewhere.

But it never fails to bring out some entertaining dialogues.
I might join that group someday and spectate more often.

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Old 01-05-2023, 05:03 PM
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Yes, the banter is all over the map...entertaining to watch

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Old 01-05-2023, 10:56 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Most people who have been on this forum for a while know about the term multi-invoice car.

This car would have been one.
A previous invoice billing the car to that Florida Zone Office.
ZSI is for Zone Stock/Inventory
The discount tells it pulled a duty
The Florida License charge tells it was registered for use.

They are not always still on file with PHS , but it would be worth checking with them if someone were interested enough in pursuing the car at a certain price point.

PHS doesn't always automatically scan for that possibility.
Most times you will have to point out the reason for suspecting multi invoices and Jim will see your point - and investigate.

If it is still on file , it will predate the trim tag by a wide margin.
fwiw

It would be the first small step of putting this car back in proper order by at least getting the trim tag to coincide with the VIN range.

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Old 01-05-2023, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhein View Post
Nice looking car. Does the drivers rear quarter look funny to you? In pic # 61 the line coming off the wheel flare going back looks wrong to me.
Like it tapers back too soon creating a larger curve than typical?

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Old 01-06-2023, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
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Like it tapers back too soon creating a larger curve than typical?
Yes, exactly. I suppose it could be lighting?

But it looks like maybe a bad repair? Compare to the next pic #62

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Old 01-07-2023, 01:55 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Is this a No Reserve auction for the Blue 72 ?
Or do all the No Reserve auctions on BaT specify No Reserve in their titles ?

Noticed a couple listings had it listed in their titles.
I didnt see anything on this auction stating there was a reserve , or reserve not met , unless that is just a given fact on BaT.

Rocky did a pretty good job of balancing while walking on the egg shells in his last couple of comments on there.

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Old 01-07-2023, 02:34 PM
70TA-RAIII 70TA-RAIII is offline
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Yeah, I believe all auctions are with a reserve unless stated as "no reserve".

John

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Old 01-07-2023, 05:28 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Thanks for clarifying about a reserve on it.
He probably will eventually have to take a bath to ever sell it now.

Seems to be a small scale flipper and non-pontiac guy who got his feet too wet, and fell in over his head.

It will likely just keep doing the rinse/repeat cycle over and over between dealers and flippers who don't perform due diligence.

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Old 01-07-2023, 11:27 PM
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Just saw this.

I see we're all in agreement. Unfortunately, lots of questionable areas on this car.

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