[scott70]

FAL,,,,when they see that," oh crap" comes to mind.Yes,its my favorite.

[David Holmberg]

True, the visual factor plays a big part in it.

The biggest "Oh Sh^t" factor in the dark is the racking of a shotgun.

[uneasyrider]

The thing to always remember/put in context is where you are shooting! If in the house a shotgun should never have 00 buck in it and for that matter is a ton of firepower and can kill people that are on the other side of walls etc. Large caliber hand guns are the same and rifle except maybe .22 long rifles are WAY OUT of the question. “Load your shotgun with #6 low brass, DEVASTATING to 25' or so…” There you have it! I can't agree with Cliff more! My two bits might be a .410 though. IMO it’s a nice one because of the low recoil (automatic is even better) so small frame people can use it easier.

Now if we’re talking outside I see you have a 12 gauge already so that’s the best all-round gun you can have. Benelli makes a cool shot gun! It’s super versatile since you can actually load different round in singly without having to jack the others out to get to them. Look at their sight and you will see what I mean. They are expensive though! Then the problem is who’s going to shot the rifle and/or the 12 gauge. Women have a harder time generally with the large caliber guns so a .410 makes a great choice for a shot gun. It will lay down some wicked fire without a bunch of kick especially in a semiautomatic. Then as some have said the AR15/.223 is a great gun for the firepower vs. recoil. My personal choice is the M14 in the rifle and a 12guage shotgun. For handguns there again gals have a harder time with the larger calibers. My mom got a permit and I took her to the range and tried several calibers and the one she felt at ease shooting was an eight shot .22 long rifle revolver. It might not sound like much but the biggest thing is she isn’t afraid of it so if she has to use it she wont be worried about the gun just the situation! I had her try it with some hotter .22 ammo and she was still good. My mom is 63 and 5’ 4”. Another one to consider is the .22 mag. I like the .45 Colt ACP in a hand gun. I had a Desert Eagle .44 Mag. years ago and it was GREAT! The fire power! The accuracy! BUT… heavy, many women can’t even chamber a round in it or get their hands around the grip and carrying it concealed was a joke unless you had a trench coat.

That said the best survival rifle/gun is a .22 long rifle. You can carry hundreds of rounds in your pocket and it will kill small game and people if you had too. Cheap ammo and even a child can shot it. You can use the round in both a pistol and a rifle too.

Just my two bits…

[JLHarper]

The last "ban" went after high capacity mag capability and if they follow suit this time (if its comes to that) and reading what you are looking for...I would go for something that is high capacity mag, fun/easy to shoot, and reasonably priced ammo.

Hard to beat a AR15 or equiv in .223.
These days many to pick from by various companies, some mentioned above in other posts.

The .30 cal. M1 carbines are fun, easy to shoot (short barrell though) and prices are going up considerably for the WWII versions espically the Inland paratrooper model.

A Ruger Mini 14 in .223 is priced right and large capacity clips are available.

Good luck with you search.
Jeff

[lazlo]

If Husein Obama gets in there the first thing to disappear will be ammo. They've nearly succeeded at that in the past. Whatever you get, make sure you have a large supply of good ammo. Years ago I bought an SKS with a couple thousand rounds of ammo for next to nothing.

Got my 1100 & my Sig P226 for home defense, Got my reliable old S&W Chief for concealed carry, Got my .30 cal carbine for woodchucks out back, Got a safe load of pistols & revolvers, along with a few lever actions, some .22's, & a couple of shotguns, to include a nice Browning Sweet 16, just to have.

http://www.lazlographics.com/Thompson.html
For civil unrest you cant beat a .45 Thompson, with a drum mag, once you learn how to hang onto it...

[shawn e.]

I am surprised no one mentions a 10-22. You can arm the whole family for 600$ and ammo is cheap! Yeah I know the "knock down power" argument. Just a thought though.

Shawn

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by shawn e.

I am surprised no one mentions a 10-22. You can arm the whole family for 600$ and ammo is cheap! Yeah I know the "knock down power" argument. Just a thought though.

Shawn

I did, I just didn't specify a make and model see below. It's at the end of the above.

Originally Posted by uneasyrider

That said the best survival rifle/gun is a .22 long rifle. You can carry hundreds of rounds in your pocket and it will kill small game and people if you had too. Cheap ammo and even a child can shot it. You can use the round in both a pistol and a rifle too.

Just my two bits…

On entering this page I see the term 'knock down power' in the first paragraph.

This is kinda lengthy but..... Let me tell you about 'knock-down-power and what it may mean to you sometime in the future!!

In 1988 I had to shoot an intruder that had kicked me down flat on my back on the floor - after two assaults and me trying to reason him out of the house. He trying to kick me in the neck and head when I fired.

I shot him with a SAA 45 Long Colt. It hits one heck of a lot harder than a 1911A1 45 semi auto. The bullet went in just under this guys right pants pocket, up thru his liver, diapraghm, stomach, left lung and out under his left shoulder blade. Just missed his heart by millimeters. It took out a good sized chunk of his liver, a portion of his stomach and the lower third of that lung (later medical analysis reviewed at the trial). This guy never made a sound, never even umphed or flinched. He peed his pants, turned and stepped up over an 18inch high automon and walked out to the kitchen. After standing there for about 5 minutes (while my wife was STILL ON THE PHONE AFTER 25 MINUTES TRYING TO GET THE EFFING COPS); he walked out to his car some 40 feet away and was still standing there when the cops finally arrived some 10 more minutes later. We could have had pizza baked and delivered before Anne Arundel Cos finest arrived. The dispatcher never put a car on the road tilll TWO MINUTES AFTER HEARING THE SHOT AND ASKING MY WIFE ABOUT IT!!

It was determined he had been doing STEROIDS, had just done 4 lines of coke and had 17 one oz shots of 150proof whiskey (BAL .21) on arrival at our house.

The moral of the story is this: you better make d&*$%#$ sure you put a guy down
with the first round because in this days and age an intruder is most likely to be ON SOMETHING!!! Steroids made this guy a ragin maniac and the coke made him insensitive to pain!

Pres Reagan was shot with a 22 back in 1980 and didnt even know it till later! People shot in the head with 25's and 32's have liived to tell the tale!

Get something that has REAL KNOCK DOWN P O W E R!! Not a rifle, you dont want to try and wield 25 -35 inches in a narrow hallway or doorway nor have it stick out far enuf that someone may grab it or push it aside! You want ammo that fires with a low orange flash not bright white and blind you against a 2nd shot in the middle of the night. No flashlight down the barrel that he can sight at either. Also use frangible bullets that wont penetrate the walls and into your kids bedroom or the nextdoor neighbors house.

PS I was not found guilty of anything BUT was later sued by the guy for 7.5 MILLION because I was supposed to protect visitors. That too fizzled but it was 4.5 years of pure He.. Well you can guess......

If you feel you need protection do get ADEQUATE protection.

[WarbirdTA]

I'll stick with my ARs, as they still use the ammo that the US military uses.
I can shoot much better with my AR than any AK.

George

[360Rocket]

I like the AR. Shotguns are nice but you want something that can reach out and touch someone too. Below is for far away, I carry a Glock 10mm for home and I have the Desert Eagle .44 MAG for tank busting. The Marine Corps took care of the shooter. I had the Franchi SPAS 12 and looking to pick one up again.

[Cliff R]

62lemans, great story above. As you found out, there is no such thing as "knock down power". Instant incapacition is acheived by a direct hit the to central nervous system, or to the circulatory system in such a manner that blood flow to the organs is instantly stopped.

What stops (and kills) with weapons is the wound channel and what the bullet actually comes into contact with. The "knock down" power stuff comes from years of watching stunts on movies and television.

Any weapon that knocks down assailant, would knock down the person firing the weapon. Basic laws of physics, for ever action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Nuff on knock down power.

As for weapons of choice, lots of good rifles mentioned. Pound for pound the dirt cheap SKS rifles are tough to beat, dead solid reliable and relatively accurate. I prefer the legendary AK's, the Romanian imports are excellent for the price. I have two of them here, fun to shoot and look good as well, plus all kinds of neat stuff you can buy for them, folding stocks, etc.

The latest M-16 A2's and other variants are nice, and light years ahead of what was available in the Vietnam era. I was a weapons specialist in the military, and have put many thousands of rounds thru various M-16's without a single malfunction. They are still a somewhat complex combination of parts, at least in comparison to the super simplistic AK-47. The round also leaves a lot to be desired, nothing overly impressive anyplace about the .223. The 7.62 X 39 is better just about everyplace.....Cliff

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by 62Lemans

On entering this page I see the term 'knock down power' in the first paragraph.

This is kinda lengthy but..... Let me tell you about 'knock-down-power and what it may mean to you sometime in the future!!

In 1988 I had to shoot an intruder that had kicked me down flat on my back on the floor - after two assaults and me trying to reason him out of the house. He trying to kick me in the neck and head when I fired...

A .45LC is a POWERFUL hand gun and that is a great example of how pumped up the human body can be on drugs and adrenaline! Great real world example!

That's why for a home defense gun I like a 12guage with 6 shot. The only reason I mention any of the other guns I talk about above is because if you have smaller people that need to use the weapon it can be an issue as far as control and even simple ability to physically use the weapon. For example, when I took my mom down to have her shoot I knew from a previous time I took her out she would have a hard time with her small hands gripping and she isn’t as strong as she used to be so holding up anything of any caliber would be tough enough. So I tried my .45ACP first because it was the biggest thing she might be able to handle and she couldn’t get here hand around the grip even. So then I went to a .38 Special revolver and she was so nervous about the kick that she was all over the place shooting it. SO we finally stepped down to an eight shot .22LR revolver and she blazed away with a big grin on her face. I figured at least she wouldn’t be more afraid of the hand gun then the assailant if she ever had to do anything with it and she could actually aim it and hit something. It’s a tough compromise when picking a home protection weapon because you have to figure that you won’t necessarily be the one using it. If a child (I was shooting a .22 rifle at 7 gopher hunting on my own regularly and given a choice of the bad guy dieing and my child picking up a hand gun and using it I pick the bad guy dieing ), older adult, or small frame person has to use the weapon just getting it pointed can be an effort with any caliber of significance. There is also the factor mentioned above about shooting someone on the other side of the wall. In the apartment I lived in years ago there was an infants crib directly on the other side of the wall from my bedroom. I would have felt really horrible if I had ever had to protect myself in that apartment with my .44mag Desert Eagle and a stray round went into that baby’s room. That Desert Eagle shot right through frame rails and engine blocks like butter so a sheet rock wall might as well have been tissue paper to it. Wicked gun though and you want to talk knock down power it had it in spades. I think the old .410 semi auto shotgun might be the best bang for the buck in firepower and controllability IMO as a home protection weapon.

As far a great kick the hell out of things gun I like the M14 and as a backup carry weapon for that I like the .45ACP and as far as a great compromise gun that does many things well and none great the AR15. I own one of each and they all have their good points. I would choose the M1 Grand but the limited capacity is an issue. I love the old BAR M1918 but it’s heavy and for the weight you have a limited number of rounds but those 30-06 rounds are fantastic! Now if I could only find a 30round magazine feed semi auto 300 Win Mag.! Now that would be some firepower!

As far as a .22LR goes it’s still the best survival rifle as far as I’m concerned if you could only have one weapon and not to be confused with a home protection weapon or a "military" weapon.

[DiamondJim]

I was on the Army pistol team. In close, give me a 45 anyday. Of course my Ruger .44 Mag has a little more "knock down". I also have a Mini 14, AK, AR15, Browning auto shotgun and quite a few others, (just in case)-LOL. Well stocked on ammo as well. And Cliff, had to clear M-16's a few times but overall a well made weapon. JMO's. -Jim

[Cliff R]

If you are looking at handguns for home defense, forget any automatic pistols in any configuration. Get a revolver, 5 or 6 shot. I spent most of my military career training folks to shoot. I see folks frequently buying autoloading pistols for the Mrs. for home defense. She's more likely going to get it taken away from her and used on her if/when a late night assault by an intruder ever occurs.

The last thing an untrained person needs to worry about in the middle of the night when an intruder is in the house is working the slide, making sure the magazine is in place, or fumbling with a safety. Revolvers always go "boom" every time you pull the trigger.

The low cost Taurus and Rossi S & W copies in .38 Special are excellent. I carry a Rossi 5 shot .38 snub nose revolver, stainless steel. Never mess with it or clean it, and it always goes boom when you go to use it. It's loaded with .38 special 158gr SWC lead bullets, standard pressure, not +P's. Very little recoil and surprisingly accurate for a 2" barrel length. I also have at my disposal an Officers model Colt .45 in stainless steel, and a S & W 3914 9mm. I don't like either one of them for a back up concealed weapon, they collect too much lint and dust, and they get tossed around in the truck enough so that on occassion the magazines will come out just enough that you may not notice it.

I would mention that if you want to arm yourself, do it soon, I'm suspecting the new President is going to try to disarm all of us, or at least make it very difficult to arm yourself...just a hunch?......Cliff

As you say, there are many things to be considered. We looked at a Browning Hi-Power 9mm but my wife couldnt rack the slide. So as you point out physical size and weight are a factor.

From a legal standpoint, you wont be allowed to just keep blazing away with a 22 till the guy goes down. Two is about the limit. If you shoot 3 or more you can expect TROUBLE with the Persecutor [intentional spelling] to the jury.

They tried to prosecute me for chosing the 45LC instead of my 22 till I pointed out that business about Reagan and the 22 in 1980.

A long gun is doggoned difficult to maneuver in a hallway or doorway. Usually will be at night and you are still half asleep, maybe trying to get your glasses on.

Remember what I said about the low orange muzzle flash. The last thing you need is to be blinded with a super bright white flash in a pitch black room. Dont count on 'blinking' at the right moment to protect your eyes. Not good tactics!

USE FRANGIBLE BULLETS and -DONT- LOAD your own - that is another legal No No. The State persecutor will tell the jury "He's a real killer he loads his own ammo for power".
regardless of what ever load you do use.

If you thiink you may ever have a home invasion: FIND OUT THE FACTS for your locality first - be prepared!!! And check all of Dr Facklers forensic medical info.

As one final note. Long after the fact I had ocassion to speak with the State Persecutor on the phone. In THE SAME BREATH WITHOUT PAUSING EVEN This is what he said word for word: If I had been in your place Mr Wise, Id have done exactly the same thing but if he died I was gonna prosecute you for 1st degree murder!!! Now aint that sweet! Find out the facts - you dont want to have to find a $200,000 Ben Matlock lawyer - that homeowners ins WONT pay for. ;-)


IF you are shooting just for fun. Id go with a Ruger MKI or II 22 with the 10" bull bbl.
I have a Ruger outfitted with a 10 power scope (and a 'fallaway' shoulder stock that I made). I can hit a quarter at a 100 yds. Also I only shoot Longs std power (when I can find em.) PS lest someone out there doesnt know about shoulder stocks - AS LONG AS IT FALLS AWAY by itself when you put the gun down it is not illegal.

[TTS]

Originally Posted by 62Lemans

IF you are shooting just for fun. Id go with a Ruger MKI or II 22 with the 10" bull bbl.

That pistol isn't bad for indoor defense in a pinch. You can lay down an impressive string of accurate fire with little muzzle flash.

I had a SW 422 with a couple of 13 rnd mags. Me and a few friends where shooting at a landfill once with a 357 and a 44. I brought the 22 for some of the beginners, it was the star of the show. I found I could empty it inside 12" at over 20 yrds as fast as I could pull the trigger. That pistol could make most people like Jerry Miculek.

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by TTS

That pistol isn't bad for indoor defense in a pinch. You can lay down an impressive string of accurate fire with little muzzle flash.

I had a SW 422 with a couple of 13 rnd mags. Me and a few friends where shooting at a landfill once with a 357 and a 44. I brought the 22 for some of the beginners, it was the star of the show. I found I could empty it inside 12" at over 20 yrds as fast as I could pull the trigger. That pistol could make most people like Jerry Miculek.

I own one of those Rugers and it's amazing how accurate that thing can be!

[Cliff R]

62lemans, regardless what the prosecuter said, all of the criteria were met in your case for using deadly force. No jury anyplace would have convicted you of 1st degree murder. I would be really surprised if a grand jury even brought charges against you once hearing all the facts.

The intruder had the ability, opportunity, and by kicking you in the head met the final part of the use of force triangle, jeapordy. All that is required for you to be able to use deadly force is that you interpreted his "intent" as trying to cause you serious bodily injury and/or death. He does NOT have to be armed for these criteria to be met, nor does he have to be in your house, a common misconseption associated with using deadly force against tresspassers and intruders.

The totality of the circumstances as I read them indicate you were fully justified in shooting him. The size/type etc of the weapon is not really a player once deadly force is justified. If you had chosen to pick up a television set and pound him to death with it, do you think they would have said you should have used a clock radio instead, because it has less size/mass and would have been more humane? I doubt it. In any case, I'm glad that you and your family made it thru the encounter without being injured or killed. Don't let a few remarks from a DA or Prosecuter effect your decision making process. If a similiar situation happens again, respond in the same manner without a second thought or hesitation, aside from maybe aiming a little higher next time!.....FWIW.....Cliff

[JLHarper]

I recall that HOME INVASION laws vary from state to state.

NC has one of the most homeowner friendly laws protecting the homeowner, so said the concealed carry instructors (law enforcement officers) when I took my course.

I remember him saying that some states are based around equal force rule, even inside the home. Comes at you with a bat you cant use more then a bat to protect yourself "unless you feel your life is in danger"

Thats where it gets "gray".

I was shot at one night (20 years ago) by a car load of black guys, standing in my front yard out in the "country" of NC, a rural area I once lived. They had a beef with old lady across the road and were shooting in her direction when I came outside. They saw me and opened up.
I had a M1 Carbine with large clip in hand, loaded, but hit the deck and they drove off.
One hit side of house, one in tree next to me, one in facia area of house, couple never found.
I could have done some damage with this M1 and at that short range. I shot often. Good thing I didnt.
State Trooper said: "if you had shot back, and hurt or killed one you would be going to jail tonight". Even shooting into their car would have got me in trouble.

You have to be very careful in this area of deadly force, even inside your home.

I know what many of you all will say.."in my house all bets are off"...I feel the same way but reading what 62 Lemans had to say....and what can really happen, isnt a good outcome.

Cliff,
Heres the difference that the prosecutor was working from. The police DID NOT record my nor my wifes statements correctly! ("Im only typing with one finger dont make me type all of that!") and he refused! Beside we live in the Socialist State of Maryland.

They took the intruders word for everything and our word for nothing!. He told them he was a friend and had been there many times. He told them we let him in. They never asked either of us if any of that was true and it wasnt revealed until the civil trial. We never knew the lies that he had told the cops.

Also it turned out later that he was a drug informant and the cops had no intention of charging him with anything. My own attorneys -refused- to seek charges against him for breaking in/assaulting me or any of the damages he had done to the house. I was told, why would you want to charge him? Look how badly you hurt him! Thankfully I was able to rid myself of them and get a decent attorney - at a cost of a second retainer!!

Another insult, the attorneys didnt want me to get my gun back AND the cops tried to return it to the intruder. Go figure. When I finally got the notice it was freed up they sent the notice in the envelope that had been returned for incorrect address and it had been mailed to the guy who broke in. He gave a false address or he'd have had my Colt!! &^*#$%^ing Anne Arundel Co Keystone Kops.

His friends/family/drinking buddies nearly drove us nuts with 10-30 phone calls day and night for over 30 months. They were smart enuf to use phones all over the county so the calls didnt come from the 'same phone' and Bell atlantic refused to do anything with the $300 worth of call traces we had done.

He and friends came by one night about a year and a half later and shot up the front of our house with automatic weapons. The fuzz refused to take the lisence nbr that a neighbor had gotten; they lost the one bullet that had gone into our water bed and would have had great ballistics. They did NO investigation at all. And to top it all off, Nationwide cancelled our homeowners ins because "we knew who it was and so NW could expect it to happen again".

He started following me to work and I wanted to see if I could get a carry permit. The state police REFUSED to even give me the forms to fill out (based on the lies he told and the incorrect police reports, I was the bad guy!!). That another thing you want to make SURE OF. The police reports need to be COMPLETE before you sign. Dont let some lazy puke convince you he doesnt have the time to type it all out!