[squidtone]

Hi there,
I'm wondering if there are any folks who have some experience with residential wells.
My house is 24 years old and has a submerged pump for my water supply.

The pump sits at 330' down, and the well is probably around 440' deep.
(I know this because I had the well "serviced" when I lost power to it 10 years ago and the well guys replaced the wires, and these are the dimensions they found.)


Earlier this year I replaced the expansion tank, and 30/50 switch, along with the check valve and shutoff valve. All was fine for the summer.


In the past few weeks I'm getting air in my pipes. I can see air at the clear sediment filter housing as we use water.


I checked the level of the water in the well and it is 20' down. It seems to me water level is not the problem.


So the pump seems to work fine when it hits 30psi: It pumps right back up to 50psi. No fuss. The expansion tank is set to 28 psi. (just checked it again.


I'm wondering if there is a pinhole or crack in the plastic pipe, letting air in when it's off cycle. Or could it be a leak in the pitless adapter?


Can me and my burly son lift a 330' pump/full hose out of the well to check this stuff?


Thanks,
Dave

[gary bennett]

You say the water is down 20ft. Is that 20 ft from ground level ?

[Sirrotica]

There are plenty of how to titles on removal of deep well pumps and piping on You tube. The "H20 mechanic" has some of the best videos in my research.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+pipe+and+pump

Mine isn't as deep as yours is, but I used an old wheel and my zero-turn mower to pull mine after the pump and wiring took a dump. I had to do it twice as I thought the wiring was fine, but it turned out I had one broken wire and had to pull it a second time to replace the wiring.

Likely you have a crack in the tubing because my pit less adapter leaks a little bit, but I never get any air in the house. Mine leaks at the O ring only when the pump runs, but I've replaced the O ring a few times already, but I still have a slight leak. I attribute this to a restriction in the underground line, and with the new pump it makes more pressure than the old dying one did.

The former owners of my home were halfassed in everything they did, so I can see them kinking the line and not replacing it while it was dug up. I was going to replace it this summer, but never got time to do it, so it is still leaking slightly at the O ring. It doesn't affect the system, so I'll shoot for next summer.

I got my basics from watching the You tube videos, hopefully they'll give you enough info to diagnose it and repair it.......

[squidtone]

Thankyou for the responses....I will start digging into the videos. Good idea on making up a wheel and pulling it....I'll think about that!
And yes water is 20 feet from ground level...

[beemergary]

Had a crack in the line from pit las adapter to tank before but can't remember the problem. The plastic pipe I had was known to fail and no longer used.

[dataway]

Sounds like it's pulling air into the system when the pump shuts off and the weight of the water tries to pull a vacuum upstream of the check valve at the expansion tank.

Some systems have a check valve at the pump also which keeps the water level in the pipe from trying to equalize with the water level in well casing (back flow through the pump).

With a check valve at the pump water can still leak out of the well pipe until it equalizes with water level in the well casing.

If you can, first thing I'd do would be to pull off the well cap, get a flashlight (might want to tether it to something) shine it down into the well when the pump is running so see if you can see any water spraying out of any leaks at the pitless adapter. A leak there would allow air to enter the system when the pump is off.

Any leak between the pump and the captive air tank check valve, that is exposed to air, can allow air back into the system when the pump is off.

Are you getting spitting at the faucets? If so, then you can get some idea of the size of the leak ... a small leak will not admit much air into the system between pump cycles, the longer the pump is off, the more time air has a chance to be pulled back into the system, a larger leak will admit the air quicker and spit more at the faucet.

I'll spare you the story but I just went through all this a couple of months ago. In my case it was a couple of "bleed holes" drilled into the well pipe which purposely admitted air into the system to allow above ground pipes to bleed water back into the well to prevent freezing.

As mentioned above "H20 Mechanic" has posted some great videos on well systems.

[squidtone]

I just finished watching a couple vids by the H2O mechanic and they were super helpful to get a better grip on how it all goes together. On one, he was able to lift the 400 ft poly out a bit by hand using a couple of bare wheels as a radiused guide used a lawnmower to haul it out. I was happy to see how that's done.
Right now, I'm focusing on the poly that comes into the house to the pressure tank before the check valve. That poly joint to the elbow fitting leaked (just a few drips a day) for a few weeks but then stopped. But still, I'm wondering if it's possible that joint seals water when the pump is running but leaks air when the pump turns off and then encounters a vacuum when the water tries to flow back into the well. I think I'll try to re-do that poly pipe to brass elbow joint.

And good idea on checking inside the well while it's pumping....I'll check that out for leaks

Thanks so much for the comments

[mrennie]

I don't have an answer for your problem but i do have a similar well setup - 385' deep with pump at 250'.

Have had to pull pump once due to no water and found the power wires were not taped to the poly pipe and had worn through and shorted out to casing. Too bad we pulled the entire thing out and found the wire issue was 40' from ground level.

On my system I have a check valve at the pump, and another check valve just before the tank. The local water pump guy recommended this to help in case the check valve at the pump went bad or there was a leak between the pump and tank, it helps prevent the water draining back into the well.

Pulling the pump took 2 guys, and finding a place to lay out 250' of pipe/wire as you are pulling it out needs some thought.

Also, think about sanitation when you put the pump/pipe back in. It is highly likely that coliform bacteria will be introduced to the well after having the pipe laying on the ground for any length of time. (It happened to me). Sanitizing will require pouring bleach into the well and circulating it throughout the the house and back to the well (using a garden hose) until you know the bleach is in the system, then waiting several hours before pumping the well down until the bleach is gone. I can't remember the required bleach concentration (Google it) but I do recall this part is a PITA.

[dataway]

It's been my experience that something that leaks water under pressure leaks more air under vacuum.

If there is no check valve at the pump, and the static water level in the well is say .. 30' below the level of your tank, then the water in the pump pipe will try to draw down to the static water level in the well casing, it will try to draw a vacuum behind the check valve at the tank. Any tiny leak exposed to air between the static level in the well, and the check valve at the tank will let air get pulled in.

With a check valve at the pump, the water in the pump line cannot draw down and creates little or no vacuum between pump and tank, so no air gets pulled in.

Shallower wells, or wells with a high static water level (compared to tank) can pull this vacuum without problems even without a pump check valve (as long as they are well sealed). As a well gets deeper, and the difference between static well level and tank increases the amount of vacuum increases dramatically, requiring a check valve at the pump.

It kind boils down to this ... for air to get in your system there has to be a hole somewhere exposed to air ... so that narrows down your search to things that aren't under water

Seems obvious that you know this stuff already.

My pump is down about 125 feet on crappy old pvc pipe, with a good hand hold (T-pipe on pitless adapter) I can lift the pump, didn't say I could pull the pump, but I can lift the whole thing.

[squidtone]

Thanks for the continued responses! I appreciate the "data" point about lifting the pump and tubing.



I have not been able to re-do that poly pipe connection to the elbow/switch/pressure tank fitting yet. (I got sidetracked with some in-law wiring emergency...they moved nearby a year ago and hoo-boy it's been one thing after another),


BUT, I was able to do a wee experiment: I ran the faucet until the pump switched on, then ran up and turned the faucet off. When I ran back down and the pump hit 50 psi and shut off, I put my ear to the poly pipe to elbow joint and I swear I could hear a tiny hiss....I'm guessing it's sucking air as the water in the line above the static level of the well tries to fall back down into the well????


I am going to cut back the poly a bit and put in a 1" union to re-do the joint (I'm wondering if the poly is just messed up from me prying it off and forcing it back on during my pressure tank replacement earlier this year.)

I will report back (it might be some days).

[dataway]

Good call on cutting and reinstalling the poly. The stuff is very tough overall, but it doesn't tolerate cold removal or installation very well. If you drag it off barbs, stretch it prying with a screw-driver etc. .. it does tend to have issues.

Break out that engine stethoscope and give it a listen. Listening is a good way to find leaks in plumbing. Typically everything should be very silent with the system at rest.

[squidtone]

Hi Folks, I wanted to just finish this thread up with an update.


I successfully rid my system of air. It WAS the joint between the incoming poly "well pipe', and the brass hose barb. I tested it a few times and after a pump up, if you listened real carefully, you could hear the slightest hiss...again I think it was the water in the pipe wanting to flow back into the well, so it pulled air through that joint. I will sheepishly admit that while waiting to pick up a new 1" brass union, I simply JB welded that joint. And that fixed the problem. I will fix it right with a new union and cut back the poly a bit.


THANKS so much for chiming in...it was helpful to get some ideas and tips on the H2O mechanic guy videos.



My wife is pretty happy we didn't pay a plumber/well company...I'm thinking they would have recommended just replacing the 24 yr old pump. If I can get a bit more time with it I'm happy.
Dave