[Keith Seymore]

gtoric - do not read this, please

Originally Posted by John V.

A copy of a Manifest for one of the Zone Announcement cars was published in The Legend, late in '05 (October issue, IIRC).

I do not believe that it represents the very first '64 GTO produced. The Prod. Date is shown as 9/11/63 for that one.

John - do you have a copy I could see?

Thanks,

K

[valkyrie9901]

824Fo19043........JB.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

For which car, Paul?

The reason I ask is because the John's obituary in the "Tracker" (our chapter newsletter) said that he had the build sheet for the very first GTO...but we can't seem to find a copy of it.

K

HA!! I cant remember who has this now!!!! This is gonna bug me for days.

I may find out more this Saturday. Ill see a bunch of the guys then.

[MH 1964]

In the late 80s there was a nice red 64 covert. built the third week of Sept. at the spring dust off show at Pontiac Michigan. Nice car, no Documentation to prove the car was a GTO. Never saw the car again.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

For which car, Paul?

The reason I ask is because the John's obituary in the "Tracker" (our chapter newsletter) said that he had the build sheet for the very first GTO...but we can't seem to find a copy of it.

K

Pics of it anyway. It was the one that John had on display at the 04 Nats. I'm waiting on an email containing the pics. Once I get them, Ill post.

[Geeto-Tiger]

According to PHS, my car was built Oct 10, 1963. The car is in storage so I cannot obtain any data plate info.

[Old Blue 66]

According to these pics, this 64 was built on 9/11/63. From what I can see, this was from one of I think 6 zone cars that was sent around the country to promote the GTO.

These pics were taken at the 2004 GTO Nats. They are from an overhead projector while John Sawruk was speaking about the car. I was there but cant remember any info about the car.


Take note in picture one. It says over to the right "Stock September 14, 1963". The Fisher body number was kind of high at 43 but I would assume it was because they were building other A body models off the same body.

[Keith Seymore]

Thanks, Paul -

That is the same document that John and I have been looking at.

K

[John V.]

Paul, I was not there for Sawruk's presentation so don't know how he represented this car.

The story was published in "The Legend" in Oct. '05. In the article, this Manifest record was identified as being the earliest that Jim Mattison had found to date, after spending over 100 hours in the search.

It is not claimed as the first. Count me as a skeptic that it was, based solely on circumstantial evidence.

It was certainly a "significant" GTO. The article says that it "appears that identically-optioned silver convertibles were built as promotion cars for each of the 27 zones." Doesn't say if Manifest records had been turned up for all of them or even whether they were all produced about the same time as this one. The article did include a reprint published in The Dallas Morning News on Monday Oct. 14, 1963 of a Road Test of what undoubtedly was one of these Zone Announcement silver convertibles. The article was penned by Frank X. Tolbert, folks from Dallas may remember him for a variety of things. He wrote a general column, wasn't an auto editor per se. He said nice things about his experience driving it. The article has errors (mention of the new GTO 389 engine having aluminum heads and replacing the '63 326 "aluminum job" stand out), but overall some good early publicity for the new GTO.

The reasons I doubt the 9/11/63 build was the first GTO are:

1. Model Year production began on Tues., 9/3/63.

2. The Body No. PO 00046. This means this was the 46th Lemans Convertible produced by Fisher Body at the Pontiac complex that year. Fisher maintained separate Body No. counts for each Model Series and Body Style.

3. The VIN P003147. This was nominally the 2,147th production '64 Pontiac to come off the Pontiac Plant final line.

Approx. 1 of every 20 Pontiacs produced in '64 was a Lemans with the GTO option based on my best estimates of total production. Since some Plants did not produce any A body models, my estimate is that about 1 of every 19 Pontiacs that rolled out of the Pontiac Plant were GTOs.

It is a little hard for me to believe that of more than 2000 Pontiacs that came off the line ahead of this one, not a single one was equipped with the GTO option.

I do not have accurate nos. for the no. of Lemans' produced in total, with and without the GTO option, but again, my best estimates suggest that more than 1 in every 3 Lemans' got the GTO option.

These estimates are based on model year totals, so not necessarily accurate at the start of the year. So you can believe that there was some reason that PMD did not choose to immediately start building any GTOs.

It is possible that PMD concentrated on big Pontiacs during the week of 9/3 and did not begin production of the A body until the following week. But based on the Body No. of this Convertible, if anything, it might indicate that they produced an even higher percentage of the all new compact A body during the first week of production than what they averaged for the entire year. Hardly supports the idea that the Lemans was slow to get started in production.

Prior to the introduction of the Lemans Hardtop, production of the Lemans Sports Coupe was exceeding the production of the Lemans Convertible by about 2.3:1.

That would suggest that by the time this Zone Announcement Convert was produced, they might have already produced more than 100 Lemans Sports Coupes.

Again, I would be surprised to learn not a single one of these first 100 Lemans Sports Coupes got the GTO option.

Even if you believe the story that only 5000 GTOs were originally planned and believing that only 1/2 of them would be produced at the Pontiac Plant (the other half distributed amongst the satellite Plants), you would still anticipate about 50 GTOs being built at the Pontiac Plant each week.

Unless there was a vendor snafu, I can't think of any reason why PMD would have delayed production of a Lemans with the GTO option. By my estimation, dozens of GTOs would have rolled off the line at Pontiac prior to this Zone Announcement Convertible (it is less clear when production began at any of the satellite Plants).

It is only my opinion. Since I don't have free access to the Manifest records, I surely can't prove anything.

But when published in "The Legend", this 9/11/63 GTO was not claimed to have been the first built, only that it was the earliest documented mention of the GTO "so far". It also says it was Jim Mattison who made the presentation at the 2004 Meet. Perhaps Jim checked every VIN record starting with P001001 and this was the lowest VIN he found with the GTO option noted. But it doesn't clearly state that he checked all the prior VIN records, so I believe the question remains open whether there were earlier Pontiac built '64 GTOs. Perhaps somebody can get this clarified by Jim directly?

[skgto]

824f013735

[triathlonx13]

Allegedly a local guy has # 4 built ???

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

Allegedly a local guy has # 4 built ???

Thanks. Please see what you can find out.

I'd need a VIN, or a date code off the cowl tag, or some PHS documentation to be convinced (preferably all three).

K

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Thanks. Please see what you can find out.

I'd need a VIN, or a date code off the cowl tag, or some PHS documentation to be convinced (preferably all three).

K

OK, I talked to the guy. He said that the last digits of the VIN are 8950. (first digits are 824P... Pontiac plant) On the firewall stamp is "2nd" and the word "final" (which he states is for 2nd shift / final inspection. Included on the firewall stamping is Sept 16th.(1963) He spoke wilth Jim Mattison (from PHS) that Sept 11th (1963) was the date of the first GTO. His data punch is Sept. 19th and his paper work is Sept. 21st. Also is the code 09C which equates to the third week in Sept. His car was built on a Monday. He also mentioned that the first GTO's were Post Cars. If you need more information - PM me... thanks,
Chris

.

[Keith Seymore]

Thanks. PM sent.

K

[MH 1964]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

OK, I talked to the guy. He said that the last digits of the VIN are 8950. (first digits are 824P... Pontiac plant) On the firewall stamp is "2nd" and the word "final" (which he states is for 2nd shift / final inspection. Included on the firewall stamping is Sept 16th.(1963) He spoke wilth Jim Mattison (from PHS) that Sept 11th (1963) was the date of the first GTO. His data punch is Sept. 19th and his paper work is Sept. 21st. Also is the code 09C which equates to the third week in Sept. His car was built on a Monday. He also mentioned that the first GTO's were Post Cars. If you need more information - PM me... thanks,
Chris

.

Wow this is a early car what are the options? This is a post car right? Glad to see a early car around!

[John V.]

Chris, I suspect the Owner is mistaken in his understanding.

I bet he was told the early cars were all "Post Cars" with respect to the idea that they were not yet producing the Lemans Hardtop body style.

But as evidenced by the Zone Announcement GTO convertible, it is absolutely untrue that the 1st GTOs were all Post Cars (Sports Coupes). They just weren't being produced as Hardtops yet.

There is absolutely no logical way to believe VIN 824P008950 was the 4th GTO off the line.

Refer to the math in my earlier post. I would bet that no fewer than 40 and as many as 300 GTOs had been produced at the Pontiac Plant alone between the time the Z.A. convertible was produced and by the time this one rolled off the line.

In the first week or so, production rates were far slower. Once they got rolling, the Pontiac Plant produced about 70 cars per hour or nominally 1000 cars per day (2 shifts). This 2 dr. Sports Coupe was built approximately 7 Production Days after the Z.A. convertible.

I'm not sure what dates are represented by those posted for the car. I believe 9/21 is likely the Date Stamp on the Manifest. These stamped dates may represent the date the car was Invoiced to the dealer by the Accounting Dept. The stamped date is typically 2-3 days after the Production Date typed on the Manifest and the Accounting Dept. would Invoice the dealer as soon as possible after the car rolled off the line so this stamped date could very well be the Invoice date.

I doubt anybody knows what date is represented by the "PROD. DATE" typed on the Manifest, possibly the date planned by the scheduling clerk for the Body Assembly to be sequenced to the Final Line from the Body Bank.

I'm not sure why the guy thinks his car was built on a Monday. 9/19/63 was a Thurs. and MIGHT represent the day the car was completed. The date stamped on the Firewall is a Monday, 9/16/63. However, I suspect this "Final" pertains to a date at Fisher Body rather than a date on the Final Line.

Body Assembly at Fisher Body preceded Final Assembly and took a couple days from start to finish before the fully trimmed Body was conveyed to the Body Bank. 09C was meaningful to Fisher Body but nobody knows what calendar dates were associated with this "Time Built" code or what it meant to Fisher.

This Sports Coupe is definitely an "early build". But considering that the Pontiac Plant alone likely assembled 15,000 GTOs over the course of about 280 Production Days (roughly 50 per day avg.), it is hard to believe that this one was only the 4th built.

I still would like to know if Jim M. actually checked every VIN from P001001 to P003147 before finding a single GTO. Even if that is true, I cannot imagine that he checked nearly 6000 additional VIN records to discover that P008950 was only the 4th Lemans equipped with the GTO option.

[triathlonx13]

Like I said.."Allegedly a local guy has # 4 built ???" That was the word on the street.

But after talking to Lindsay, he didn't make any claim about "#4". But he did however discuss in length with Jim Mattison about his car Jim did state that his car was the earliest that he has come crossed. Remember that 8950 does not correspond to the number of GTO's produced up to that time (but rather to the amount of cars built including the GTO quantities) Keith Seymore - I believe made contact with Lindsay to discuss his findings.

I'm no expert on decoding - Just tried to facilitate some information.

[chrisp]

Has anyone every heard of the 1st. GTO called the Flame Delorean design and tested . It was a 326 ci auto with aluminum headers irredescent red w/matching color interior .

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by chrisp

Has anyone every heard of the 1st. GTO called the Flame Delorean design and tested . It was a 326 ci auto with aluminum headers irredescent red w/matching color interior .

Originally Posted by Juliano

Probably the (Delorean Red one) built for himself.....

I believe it's "Flamme".



For an absolutely true (...I swear it...) story on the GTO name, see this thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=549318

K

[chrisp]

You found it , i was talking on the phone today to the owner of this car and some of the parts he has . What a story he really got my blood moving . He said that this car was a 1 of a kind prototype , licensed as a 1963 1/2 . He had wrecked the car due to a brake failure , still has is and the truly unique parts headers w/alum. side exit exhaust etc . He says he has quite a bit of documents and photos as well . Car was found under a cover on a trailer in Chicago after gm went into the 64 production . Also knows of a Bonneville that was on this trailer as well 421 supercharged .