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Old 10-13-2016, 09:03 PM
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Default The Reverse Cooling engine performance thread

Maybe it's a good idea to post up some of the links that I have found about these engines and also ask some questions from you guys who may know such things. It would be nice to have more info all in one place.
The short block does not seem special although it looks like forged buckets would need to be made for most of the displacements.
Looks like oil pumps are special . I have seen discussions about heat treating the rods.
Did Pontiac ever offer an aluminum timing cover to fit these?
It sounds like the 066 “ Tri-Power” cam is supposed to be a good performance upgrade, though looking at lift & duration, how different is it from the factory '57 cam.
My main area of interest is in getting power out of the heads. Any tricks? Or just standard valve & bowl work, pin the studs for good spring, etc.
Here is a lead off question: In '57, they ran 141 on the beach at Daytona to set a new speed record. Just what sort of Horse Pressure would John Zink have been making to run this speed?

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Old 10-15-2016, 10:26 AM
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Any interest here? For starters:
http://www.pontiacsafari.com/EngineCooling/index.htm
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...&highlight=347

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Old 10-15-2016, 11:52 AM
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Question, did Pontiac ever use oil squirters aimed at the bottom inside of the pistons on their race engines? Or have aftermarket ones ever been offered by any company?

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Old 10-15-2016, 03:36 PM
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Iron covers on all the 55-60 motors maybe even beyond that. 55-58 used a 4 point mount...one under timing cover(thats what the outer large bolt holes were originally for) Two mid mounts on the bell housing and one for the trans tail.

The reverse cool blocks up thru 59 (and some 60 blocks) have an extra hole(@1/2") below the core clean out holes that serve same purpose as thermostat bypass on newer motors. The timing cover gasket is different because of that.

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Old 10-15-2016, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 694.1 View Post
Looks like oil pumps are special .
The 55 through 58 oil pump castings are slightly different than the 59 and newer pumps. If you put a newer pump on the old block, the crankshaft and the oil pump try to occupy the same space during part of the crank's turn. If you compare the pump-to-block gaskets of a pre-59 pump with an earlier pump you can see part of the difference.

You can fit newer oil pump guts into older pump castings. Some of the early oil pumps had helical cut "gears" instead of straight ones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 694.1 View Post
pin the studs for good spring
I've seen 58 heads modified with screw in studs. But if you do that you must replace rocker arms, balls and fasteners to allow rocker arm ball and valve oiling to occur.

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Last edited by Bill Hanlon; 10-15-2016 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 10-15-2016, 10:49 PM
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One of my 59 motors had 1960 heads on it that had some modest but nice port work. The timed oil feed to the heads was blocked and regular 3/8 studs pressed and pinned in place. Rockers appeared to be SBC rockers and the balls were grooved. Pushrods were liteweight aftermarket. Lifters were solids with edge orifice(corvette type)lifters on an original Pontiac over the counter "Isky E2" grind. intake valve was either 1.92 or 1.94 i cant recall but definately bigger than the stock 1.88.

The motor had been "built" in 1962 and no signs of ever having been run. On the ground next to a 59 Pontiac I found... the original 59 tripower motor still in the car. Car showed 31k miles on odometer. original owner/builder had died in an accident...car and engine in girlfriends garage a few years then later dragged out to the field out back.(@1964) I almost didnt take the motor on the ground...the pan was rotted thru and motor was a mouse hotel from what I could see thru oil pan... but I figured maybe it was a good parts source. I did notice it had been taped off real good and tape still intact. It sat in a corner of my barn for a few months and I finally got curious as to what was under all the tape. So I drug it into my shop where I could see better and found nice ports with a light yellow grease on them and no rust. Off came the valve covers and valley pan....packed full of rodent nest. Took the shop vac to it and barely any rust inside and cam covered in grease... Pulled the oil pan off...every thing was packed with mouse nest. Vaccumed that out and again grease and possibly dried up motor oil protected most every thing from rust...Hmmm..bottom view of pistons they werent stock... Hey...aluminum flywheel on this thing... SD balancer on other end. Motor seemed like it might turn over ok so I pulled heads... wow pistons have a good size dome... they are polished and shiny...cylinder walls are covered in a oil colored grease, but no signs of use after wiping some off... A fairly light tug on the flywheel and the crank moves. Ok now I'm really inspecting... flywheel...Harvey aluminum...cant get a name on 3 finger clutch so decide to pull it...damn galvanic corrosion soon as I turned clutch bolt it tore a big chunk of flywheel off...oh well...head gaskets Victor Reinz steel/composition... Rods early SD... Pistons JE but appear to be cast but maybe forged, 11cc dome no valve notches(E2 cam minus lash and small valve it wouldnt have needed them... Measure them at 4.115, bore measures 4.120 top to bottom(so it was/is a 400 now)... rings had stuck dirt and left light dirt scratches but otherwise crosshatch looking fresh. No carbon anywhere. Crankshaft was/is pretty and nicely worked no sharp edges and almost looks like a forging(but has cast part number) balance weight added in one spot and other signs of being rebalanced. Oil holes nicely detailed...bearings (.010 under)darker than new but perfect(and detailed) and usable. Rulon pin buttons instead of retainer clips, pins push thru by finger pressure... pins kind of heavy and maybe stock...oops broke a ring... The heads are 60 castings with 55-59 gusher tubes and intake valve is not stock... ex port has been polished, chambers measure same as the 59 tripower "x" stamp heads on other motor(which was an AN 420 4 bolt) so milled... block...someone really spent some time on oil passages... very nice detail at the mains...no casting flash anywhere... oil pump pickup brazed to pump, modified pick up, but screen clogged with field debris. The 59 Cat had period mild custom touches and an SD tach.
I sold the car the AN block wasnt supposed to go with it but I was out of state when the guy came to get it. My wife and son loaded the # matching AN block with it.#*XXX##** . I Sold the 59 "x" heads...B-man recently bought the dual point distributor... I sold the tripower... I sold a set of curved top early M/T valve covers, I reluctantly sold the long branch manifolds, the SD balancer disappeared during my move, The 60 heads(with rockers) are part of a 301 project a friend started some time ago... I tossed the SD rods by mistake...later finding empty box labled SD rods...
My 59 water pump seems fine... I made some block offs for the timing cover and rigged up a pressure test...holds dry air at 50 psi... we'll someday find out if it leaks once it sees hot water. The block will be a foundation of a project I'm working on. Converting to late heads and reverse cooling them... I may up the bore/stroke some. Anyone wants the pistons and pins/buttons they're yours for the ship cost. They will need a set of rings.
Sorry for the long read... wish I had put this motor together again and ran it(dyno) just to see what 1962 era hot rod type motor would make for power... I'd guess 375-400.

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Old 10-15-2016, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 694.1 View Post
Maybe it's a good idea to post up some of the links that I have found about these engines and also ask some questions from you guys who may know such things. It would be nice to have more info all in one place.
The short block does not seem special although it looks like forged buckets would need to be made for most of the displacements.
Looks like oil pumps are special . I have seen discussions about heat treating the rods.
Did Pontiac ever offer an aluminum timing cover to fit these?
It sounds like the 066 “ Tri-Power” cam is supposed to be a good performance upgrade, though looking at lift & duration, how different is it from the factory '57 cam.
My main area of interest is in getting power out of the heads. Any tricks? Or just standard valve & bowl work, pin the studs for good spring, etc.
Here is a lead off question: In '57, they ran 141 on the beach at Daytona to set a new speed record. Just what sort of Horse Pressure would John Zink have been making to run this speed?
The Tri-Power cam that is the most well-known would be the '068' cam (288/302 duration) that was used in the '65 GTO 360 HP 389. The milder 066 cam (273/282 duration) was used in many of the earlier big Pontiac 389 Tri-Power engines as well as in numerous run-of-the mill 4-barrel engines and 2-barrel 455s all the way through the mid-'70s.

The '57 Tri-Power cams used were the '472' cam (same profile as the '066') in the 290 HP engines and the 317 HP engines used the hotter '886' cam (283/293 duration). All of the above mentioned factory cams have .406" lift at the valve for both intake and exhaust.

Heat treating the original forged rods is completely non-productive, with much better aftermarket forged rods now available for very reasonable prices. New import forged rods are very likely cheaper than the cost of heat treating and reworking the inferior stock rods.

Getting the most out of any head would include at the very least a good valve job and if the funds are available a professional porting job. Pinning the studs is really not the way to go, the heads can be damaged while trying to pin the factory studs that really aren't made of the best material anyway.

Isky Cams luckily still offers the proper hollow screw-in chrome moly studs that will still oil the rockers through the studs to convert '55 -'60 Pontiac heads under part # 909. Interestingly these # 909 studs are some of the very few rocker studs still offered by Isky, likely from inventory that may still be on the shelf from long ago. http://iskycams.com/cart/index.php?m...oducts_id=1957

How much power were they making with the blueprinted 347s back in the day? My guess would be close to 1 HP per cube which should be plenty to push a '57 Pontiac up to 141 MPH. The aero on them certainly wasn't favorable but the frontal area isn't really all that bad, these were mid-sized cars by today's standards and look a lot bigger because of their heavy-looking styling.

I've had my boxy '64 Tempest up very close to that 141 MPH speed, with a very mild 8:1 compression 068-cammed 335 HP 455 pushing it through the wind. That 335 HP number is calculated using the 101.85 MPH trap speed I was able to attain while running it in the 1/4 mile.

I love the early reverse-cooled Pontiac V8s, I'm currently playing around with a '59 389 myself. Would like to acquire a few more Pontiac V8s of the '50s even if just to use for display.

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  #8  
Old 12-02-2016, 01:30 AM
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"Converting to late heads and reverse cooling them... I may up the bore/stroke some. Anyone wants the pistons and pins/buttons they're yours for the"


Bruce.............did you ever get this thing assembled and run? I ask because I'm doing the exact same thing with a '57 motor bored to 370, using a pair of #46 heads off a '74 GTO 350 with screw-in rocker studs [big block chev studs and poly-locs] and pushrod guide plates . Haven't poured any coolant into it yet to try the cooling system out but I'm anticipating no problems. After all, 60 and newer Pontiac engines used standard cooling with no problems. I'd think using reverse cooling would be even more efficient even tho water distribution tubes aren't used. I'd certainly like to hear if you encountered any problems..

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Old 12-09-2016, 09:56 PM
BruceWilkie BruceWilkie is offline
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Rocky... Looks like you'll beat me to it.

A very active daughter(last kid at home) now in HS finds ways to spend our money for us lol.(Her older siblings have taught her well.)
HS band, percussion lessons, piano lessons, vocal lessons, field trips... not to mention all the other things a young girl wants (and mostly gets because she works hard for it).

No complaint, I'm enjoying this alot. Honor student, musician(keyboard, vocals, drums, tenor drums, xylophone, miramba and other percussion as needed) and latest pursuit is building her own custom (advanced)gaming computer.

Deb doesnt like me to experiment on her Firebird, so...
I need rods, rings, rod bearings, a better oil pump, and valves etc for the heads. I've made a transmission/starter/block adapter(59 block) I've made a serpentine drive for the accessories (need a better balancer than just hub from a 76). I do a bit here and there and jump on good deals when I can spare the cash. I just got a free set of SB mopar headers...new but somehow got drove over... plenty of good pieces to build turbo headers from. (I'm cutting Pontiac flanges from free 1/2" plate I aquired awhile back.) Not getting much done on my 90 bird and might opt for a older Pontiac roller that mostly needs a motor.

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Old 03-26-2018, 08:01 PM
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Default Nichels Engineering Dyno

Here is a Pontiac on the Dyno, Ray on the right.
Looks like a Roch 4 Jet on top? That would make it a 57 & down. The dual action fuel pump is interesting.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:44 PM
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The fuel pump was used with the standard vacuum operated wipers.

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Old 09-11-2018, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky 389 View Post
"Converting to late heads and reverse cooling them... I may up the bore/stroke some. Anyone wants the pistons and pins/buttons they're yours for the"


Bruce.............did you ever get this thing assembled and run? I ask because I'm doing the exact same thing with a '57 motor bored to 370, using a pair of #46 heads off a '74 GTO 350 with screw-in rocker studs [big block chev studs and poly-locs] and pushrod guide plates . Haven't poured any coolant into it yet to try the cooling system out but I'm anticipating no problems. After all, 60 and newer Pontiac engines used standard cooling with no problems. I'd think using reverse cooling would be even more efficient even tho water distribution tubes aren't used. I'd certainly like to hear if you encountered any problems..
Welp, after putting over 1000 miles on my 34 ford with 370 Poncho motor, I can say the late heads on the early block works and it works well. Shakedown run on the motor was a 700 mile run from Omaha to Joplin, Mo. and back..On the way home I got caught in a 15 mile long, stop-and-go traffic jamb that took 1.5 hours to get through.....in 95 degree heat. Never got over 210 degrees and generally runs right on the thermostat at 180 degrees. The rockers oil just fine through the hollow pushrods.
Only problem I've had is mixing the late intake [an Offy unit] with the early ['57] valley pan. I need to get a newer pan for it.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:02 PM
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I assume no water inlet tubes in the heads. Did you do anything to direct water or just let it run where it wanted to go?

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Old 09-11-2018, 09:59 PM
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I fab'd the 1/4" thick adapaters to help direct coolant into the fronts of the heads. No way to run coolant distribution tubes in the late heads so I didn't. I took a look into the front of the heads after removing the frost plugs and was surprised to see how small the coolant entry passage is but went for it anyway.....works fine.

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Old 09-12-2018, 02:40 AM
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Thanks Rocky, for the real-world info on reverse-flow through the later heads.
What compression ratio?
I recommend the AllPontiac cast aluminum valley cover. It's very rigid.

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Old 09-13-2018, 01:03 AM
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Jack....with the Jahns pistons [20 cc "lumps" on them" and the large chamber heads I'm spit balling it at between 9.2 and 9.8. Combustion chamber is weird, making a strange flame front but it seems to work. I gotta get my timing light on it to see where the timing is set. I road timed it but with the convoluted combustion chamber, I'll bet it's got a ton of advance...prolly takes a long time for the flame to travel over all the "ups and downs" in the chamber but it seems to start easy, runs strong....lotsa torque.

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Old 10-14-2018, 01:56 AM
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Still going strong but I found out I didn't install any thermostat. We've had cool weather here and I've been driving the wheels off this coupe. Sometimes it struggles to get up to 150 degrees. Next step it to install a 180 'stat. While the Offy intake and 625 CFM AFB seem to work ok I've always wanted to run a spread bore style carb on a factory Q-jet intake. I read the magazine comparison of factory Pontiac iron intake VS several aftermarket intakes and was impressed with the numbers for the original intake. I picked up a non-EGR Pontiac 400 intake for 20 bucks at the last swap meet and I already have a 800 Holley spread bore. Next year [after the snow goes off] I'd like to try this setup on my 370. If it doesn't deliver I'll use a Q-jet carb.
This winter I'm gonna change the rear main seal to a lip style 2 piece unit. Sick of this Best rope seal leaking on the shop floor. My son asks that I don't park in his drive because of the leak so I gotta fix it. I consider using late heads on a reverse cooling block a success. Probably have 2,000 miles on this setup now.
Oh, and I'm not at all happy with the 40 PSI original 57 Pontiac oil pump. While I have the pan off I'll install the gears, spring and ball from a Melling 54D [60 psi] pump I picked up.
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Old 07-30-2019, 02:53 AM
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UPDATE.....dropped the pan and installed the Melling 60 psi gears and relief valve/ball in my old original [nos] '57 pump. Now, we're talkin oil pressure! 60psi on cold oil and 40-45 psi after warm up. When the weather got hot the 180 thermostat was a bit too much restriction and the 370 ran 190-200 so I removed the T'stat again. Now its' back to running 170-180 in the summer heat.
Rockers/balls and studs all in good condition after about 5000-6000 miles. The [Jan 31, 1971] q-jet intake with it's 800 cfm Holley spread bore is on the bench. The old AFB is getting tiresome so this week [expecting rain] I'll make the swap. Hoping my 1957 valley pan and my home made alternator mount will work with the Q-jet intake.

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Old 08-21-2019, 11:30 PM
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My main area of interest is in getting power out of the heads. Any tricks? Or just standard valve & bowl work, pin the studs for good spring, etc.
Here is a lead off question: In '57, they ran 141 on the beach at Daytona to set a new speed record. Just what sort of Horse Pressure would John Zink have been making to run this speed?

I ran some numbers using the Wallace calculators, CD of a 57 Pontiac, vehicle weight, and frontal area. To run 141 MPH would take 291.74 HP at the wheels !! Quite an achievement in 1957. That's allot of net HP!

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Old 08-22-2019, 01:55 AM
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Mike- I can tell you a few things I've done to the '58 Tri-Power engine (still '58 heads) in my '59 GMC, but unfortunately I don't have performance numbers (never dyno'd nor raced). I can only say that it's significantly more powerful than the Pontiac engines I built 55 years ago.

> Eliminated bathtub chambers, opened wall around intake valve
> D-shaped dish in piston crowns (for 9:1 C.R.) which provides generous squish area and good volume-to-surface-area ratio
> Un-siamesed center two exhaust ports on each head, so long branch manifolds are as effective as intended
> Aggressive HR cam
> Precise crank-triggered CD ignition
> Total Seal ZGS rings, fairly narrow

The low-rise Tri-Power manifold is the main power limiter for this engine.

I don't remember how close to the the original 347 c.i. Zink's engine was.

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