#81  
Old 05-20-2018, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Exhaust leaks can mimic many different types of sounds/knocks/rattles. Since you have exhaust manifolds it would be nothing to pull one of them off to verify.
I've gone down the rabbit hole over an exhaust leak. I pulled the motor out before I found the soot trails.

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  #82  
Old 05-20-2018, 06:56 PM
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Default 1st oil change pictures

I along with my buddy looked for soot marks around the exhaust manifolds and didn't see any signs of an exhaust leak.

Today, HWYSTR455 cut the oil filter open. This was the original filter from the build. It ran on the dyno and had maybe 35 miles on the street. Here are a few pictures of the oil. HWYSTR455 also checked the pleats of the filter and we noticed what appeared to be small, gold colored flakes. No chunks of anything.

Chiphead...my buddy did check the fuel pump for any unusual noise and did not find anything unusual.

Let me know if any of you guys would like to see pictures of anything that you think could help.
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  #83  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:19 PM
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How about looking at a flex plate bolt that might be to long. It could go thru the crank and be hitting the back of the block or a web.

  #84  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:48 PM
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Default Flexplate bolts

JSPONT,

We did check out the flexplate bolts and it was fine. We rotated the flexplate and looked at all the bolts and none of them were hitting. Here are a few pictures of that step.
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  #85  
Old 05-20-2018, 07:53 PM
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Pull the spark plugs, and get a 1/2" ratchet and turn the engine by hand. Feeling and hearing for anything out of place. The engine should smoothly turn without any noises, scraping, dragging on feeling of torque to turn it. You may even hear your noise. Maybe a windage tray got a little close? I would for sure get my hand on the oil pan just to feel if anything my be rubbing on it. Maybe get your hand on as much as possible to feel the noise. Fuel pump, oil pan area, valve covers, distributor, etc. Almost sounds like its half speed of the crank.

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  #86  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:17 PM
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TedRamAirII,

We removed the plugs last night and turned the engine by hand. It was pretty difficult to spin. My buddy last night said it should have been much easier to spin with the plugs out. Since I'm pretty new to these old cars, I really didn't know what it was supposed to feel like. My buddy then tried and said it shouldn't have been that difficult. We didn't really hear much when we spun it but I may try that again this week.

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Old 05-20-2018, 08:31 PM
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I’m late to the party here and haven’t read the entire 5 pages so forgive me if this has been discussed, but have you looked at the torque converter or front pump of the trans? I’d unhook the trans and turn it over without the plugs in it. Maybe the front pump is a possible source???

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:11 PM
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you have to cut around both edges of the pleated part of the filter, stretch it out and look for metal particals. As stated before, does the engine have a windage tray??

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Old 05-20-2018, 09:14 PM
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ponchjoe,

5 pages summed up real quick. I'm pretty new to cars so excuse anything that I don't know

- We noticed a knocking noise at 1st start.
- We observed what appeared to be witness marks on a few of the rockers. Turns out that they "may" have been wrench marks.
- I replaced the rockers with Crowers (1.65- same a before) but the knocking continued.
- The source of the knocking appeared to be at the torque converter and traveled up towards the valve cover and front of the motor (Thats why we switched rockers)
- Yesterday we checked the bolts on the converter and flexplate. All was clear of hitting anything.
- We pulled the coverter away from the flexplate and started to motor. It was still knocking.
- We checked the fuel pump for any abnormal noise. That was fine.
- Oil pressure and water temperature both read normal.
- Today, we cut open the oil filter from the 1st oil change (Motor had less than 30 miles. Nothing much in the oil that seemed bad. I posted some pictures of the flakes found in the oil. The pleats of the oil filter had what looked like gold flakes. No chunks of anything!
- This week, I'm going to loosen the rear valley pan bolt to see if the knocking goes away.

As for the front pump...I'm clueless. I'll mention that to a few of my buddy's from the forum that live near me. Thank you for your ideas. This place is a gold mine of knowledge and I'm sure learning a lot about this stuff!

  #90  
Old 05-20-2018, 09:19 PM
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JSPONT,

HWYSTR455 cut the filter, checked the oil and the pleats and I trust him 100%. He didn't see anything out of ordinary. Yes, it does have a windage tray. Someone did mention that something could be hitting the windage tray.

  #91  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:07 PM
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Any parts on the engine itself that is different from the dyno session.......balancer flexplate waterpump...etc..???

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  #92  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:19 PM
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Once u expel all,options time to pull the pan to inspect.....it sounds like u and ,your buddies are thinking of everything...

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  #93  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:19 PM
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cnc,
No new parts from dyno.

  #94  
Old 05-21-2018, 03:39 AM
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Sounds to me like you have one lifter at zero lash and the plunger is hitting the retainer. Go over your valve lash again and check the preload. Also check for rocker arm/head interference if you're running 1.65 rockers. Look for rub marks up and down the pushrods. Check pushrod/guideplate fit/alignment. Pushrods should spin freely in the guide plate slots. Lack of clearance there can bind the pushrod enough to keep it unseated and cause what sounds like a collapsed lifter. If the knocking persists, move to the bottom end.

If you turn the engine over with the damper bolt with accessories attached against valve spring tension, it's not going to tell you much. Disconnect, the belts, pull the plugs, loosen all the rocker arms and then rotate the engine from the balancer bolt slowly feeling for any scuffing or roughness/binding during rotation. The engine should rotate smoothly requiring only even pressure to rotate. There should not be "spots" where the engine rotation binds. Rotating the engine slowly, the movement should feel uniform and fluid.

Since you are changing rocker arms anyway, you should do the bottom end check after removing the old rocker arms, then go back to the rockers, pushrods/guideplates.


Last edited by NeighborsComplaint; 05-21-2018 at 03:53 AM.
  #95  
Old 05-21-2018, 08:01 AM
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NeighborsComplaint,

HWYSTR455 installed the 1.65 Crower rockers. He checked the pushrods, guideplate fit, and alignment....all appeared normal. As I indicated before, I'm very new to cars but the source of the knocking seems to be on the bottom end of the motor. I don't know if an issue at the top end would produce sound at the bottom end. I don't have enough experience with these cars to make that determination. I've been speaking with Paul and we've gone through some trouble shooting. I will mention what you have suggested to him. My problem is that the friends that have been helping me with my car have their own cars apart so their time is limited. I do what I can but I really don't have much experience with this.

  #96  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:14 PM
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Default Update: Mystery continues

So I was asked to do a little testing today and was wondering if anyone had an opinion. Here's what I did.

I removed all the belts and left the torque converter disengaged from the flexplate to see if we can isolate the knocking noise. The knocking noise continued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiEhcLq2yA

For the second test, I was asked to loosen the rear bolt to the valley pan to see if there was a clearance issue. The knocking noise continued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvJRpllH3Vs

I guess I'll be taking the intake and the valley pan off this weekend to check for any damage or witness marks on the valley pan. I hope thats the issue because but who knows. It still appears that the source of the knocking noise is on the bottom end of the motor.

Anything that anyone can think of beside having to pull the motor would be appreciated. If not...I'll be having to pull the motor out this holiday weekend. Not exactly what I would like to do but I fear if pull the motor and see no evidence of damage, I have no clue what to do from that point.

Thoughts?

  #97  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:41 PM
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Is this a roller cam engine with a stock type valley pan? You could have minor contact between the link bars and the valley pan. You'll see witness marks on the underside of the pan. Post pics as soon as you take it off. Don't clean it or anything, maybe a small mark will indicate what's hitting.

Was a stock windage tray used? Sometimes those crack and make noise. That's why most ppl avoid them.

I still like the idea of seeing if the noise is the same speed as a timing light or 2X faster. That would help indicate valvetrain or bottom end.

Dont feel too bad. This is a very difficult and demanding hobby. Everybody on this forum has had a new engine give them fits. It's not easy being a motor head, and this kind of thing earns your stripes.

I built a 235 six for my '54 Bel Air when I was in my late teens. This was pre internet 1990s, and nobody at the local parts store told me that the early 235s used shimstock to set the mains clearance, so I left them out. 150 miles later, I went to change the oil, and the bearings came out of the drain plug looking like curly fries. It was ugly. It wasn't until I got ahold of Langdon Stovebolt and Clifford Performance (Straight six experts, by phone!) that I figured out what happened.

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Last edited by chiphead; 05-22-2018 at 10:46 PM.
  #98  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:42 PM
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I think you're on the right track. It sounded like a lifter me and I see now that you are running rollers so it may very well be a clearance issue.

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Old 05-23-2018, 12:03 AM
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It seemed to me that the noise was more pronounced after you loosened up the valley pan. If that’s actually the case it may be more likely that there is some contact happening there.

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  #100  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:20 AM
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No witness marks on the inside of the valve cover?

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