#81  
Old 11-19-2007, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Weymouth
This is a very interesting thread for me. What I consider Pontiac's best street motor is the HO but it may not be the best race motor.

I appreciate everyone giving me the time here. If you have any questions let me know I will answer them the best I can.

Mark

Welcome Aboard,MARK!

I'm sure you are going to be the MOST POPULAR contributer on THIS thread.

When I started this thread (one month ago,today) I wasn't quite sure where/how it was going go,but it seems that we have an interesting one,to say the LEAST!

PERSONALLY (as I've previously stated),MY belief is that the HO WAS the FASTER,MORE POWERFUL round port 455 Pontiac (in stock form) & YOUR article in Pontiac Enthusiast was EXACTLY what I needed to know (and wanted to HEAR!)

It's time to re-read that article & I will be back with some comments/questions.

BENCH RACING this debate in cyberspace is OK,but you are man that can take US to the TRACK!


Last edited by 2manyT/A'S; 11-19-2007 at 02:11 PM.
  #82  
Old 11-19-2007, 03:26 PM
Mark Weymouth Mark Weymouth is offline
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Thank you for the kind welcome everyone.

Jim we must use the stock exhaust manifolds, untouched and un-molested. I run a 2.5" system with a proper cross flow muffler. We could buy a bit more speed with two mufflers but I like the cars to look as close to perfect as possible. If you were at the T/A Nats this year you may have seen my blue/blue RA IV T/A. That will give you an understanding what I mean. I am fortunate to call Dan Jensen and Scott Tieman freinds and they provide an endless amount of help in this regard.

There was a comment in the early part about the "stockness" of these cars. These cars are much closer to stock than one might imagine. With the passing of time there are few cars that have survived with modest usage and good care to make them usable as the factory shipped them. Bruno and I did run two that way last year. They contianed their factory exhaust, jetting, timing curves, simply everything had to be original. Bruno ran a '67 427 Vette and I ran a Hemi Challenger. Both cars ran upper 13's. We certified the cars under tech to ensure they were 100% as they left the factory except I took the tires off both cars and put fresh bias ply rubber on them to insure safety. Really though how many people will risk cars that valuable and original for a race? It was supposed to be a rematch of the S1/Hemi shootout in MCR but the S1 backed out and Bruno was overly generous in letting us use his car.

Back to the set up rules. They are tight and I am a tech for the races and take it seriously, especially if you are running quick or are at the leading edge of your motor/car combination. If you run outside the norm we will pull you off to the side for further tech and disassembly. The fastest car two falls ago was getting a hard time having passed our tech but still many believed it was to good to be true. Terry the owner tore the motor completely down on the spot and handed the heads, cam...over for further tech. Most of the top racers take being honest that seriously and are willing to prove their standing. We also do motor tear downs for people who want to certify their cars as correct prior to the racing, then seal them up and they may only do any tuning that will break a seal with a tech present. Few people go that far but usually a handful a year will. Here is the basics:
1. You must have all correct P/N's model year and hp claimed.
2. ABSOLUTELY NO porting, gasket matching, extrude honing or other handy work.
3. Factory valve seat angles only, no competition valve jobs or multi angle seats.
4. Cam must be within 1% of factory .050 duration. Correct factory cam lift per NHRA stock class rules. For Pontiac that is .011 above the factory intended lift. For an 068 cam the factory engineering release specification was .413 lift and the acceptable tolorence from their supplier was +/- .011. This gives a total max lift of .424.
5. No light weight pistons. They must be NHRA stock class legal replacements.
6. No modifications to the crank such as knife edging...
7. NHRA Stock class head and deck height tolerances. These were the official factory tolerances given to the AMA each model year.
8. Factory spring rates, and shock rates must be used.
9. No traction aides such as traction bars...

This is not all but some of the more important. As we all know these cars have seen wear over the years. Basically you can blue print the compression to factory minimum tolerances and over bore the motor. For most cars you can not hit the theoretical compression max as the motors can not be bored that far or the pistons would hit the heads... Rules are very tight.

It really is in the details. CAREFUL setup of the motor, chassis and so on. Most of the extra ET comes from three places over the old magazine articles. Modern exhaust is a major hp opportunity, the new bias ply's hook much harder and the tracks are glued now unlike in the old days.

Pete Simpson built ZL1 motor for his low mile original paint COPO camaro using all NOS pieces for his race motor. He left every piece untouched and as the factory had built them. He then assembled the entire motor. His car was running consistent low 12's with a occasional high 11 passes. He made a maxed ZL1 motor this year and it dropped him into the 11.70's. Not a lot of gain from all the work but it does show case how a pure factory motor to a +.070 full maxed motor behaves and also shows that the motor is making up less than the three items above do.

I hope this sheds some light on what we are trying to accomplish. It is a bunch of fun and we had 150+ cars this year. Anyone who has interest should take a weekend and come and enjoy this. Where else can you see guy's running real RA IV, SD, Tri-Power, 440+6, Hemi, ZL1, Yenko Camaro's, Max Wedge Mopars, SCJ's, AMX's, S1's, W30/31's etc. It is the best car show ever as many of the cars are low mile original paint cars, some have several national show wins on them and the rest are just darn cool and they are all buzzing down the track.

Mark

The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Weymouth For This Useful Post:
  #83  
Old 11-19-2007, 03:41 PM
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KEEP it COMIN',Mark!

We're ALL soaking this up!

Here's the chance to plug your show.

Give us location,date,etc.

Can you post pics or a video clip??

  #84  
Old 11-19-2007, 04:40 PM
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Mark
all i can say is thank you.great information,will be watching to see what comes next.

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  #85  
Old 11-19-2007, 04:58 PM
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Mark, Great information! I know Dan Jensen keeps careful spreadsheets for each PS race. Does he ever publish these results? Can you convince him to type a few lines.

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  #86  
Old 11-19-2007, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge273
Mark, Great information! I know Dan Jensen keeps careful spreadsheets for each PS race. Does he ever publish these results? Can you convince him to type a few lines.
Ditto!

Apparently Dan likes to keep things "close to the chest", but maybe you could convince him to chime in here, Mark.

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  #87  
Old 11-20-2007, 01:02 AM
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Mark,
Thanks for the detailed and informative post. I would love to make one of your events. Can you post the dates/times of upcoming events?
Are you able to move the lobe separation around like an NHRA stocker or do you check that also? Anyway you look at it 12s is phenomenal performance for not having any help from speed parts, tires, special machining or tune up. You guys are even running the stock advance curve...
Spectacular!
I will be installing a 2.5" exhaust on mine...:-)
Jim

  #88  
Old 11-20-2007, 08:57 PM
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Default 2008 PSMCDR Fall Round.

Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race™
2008 Event Information


Dates
Friday, September 12, 2008
Saturday, September 13, 2008

Any participating car must be present for both days. Plan a vacation day now!

Location
Mid Michigan Motorplex
2589 N. Wyman Rd.
Stanton, Michigan 48858-9428

Ticket Prices
One Day Pass Two Day Pass
Car and Driver N/A $100
Spectator $15 $30
Children under 12 FREE FREE

Tentative Event Schedule:

Friday
Track Opens 9 AM
Registration & Tech. All Day
Time Trials All Day
Qualifying All Day until 4 PM
Track Closes 5 PM
Hospitality Room 8 PM—12 AM

Saturday
Track Opens 8 AM
Lane & Race Assignments 8 AM—9 AM
Warm-Up Time Trials 9 AM—10 AM
Call to Lanes 10 AM—11:30 AM
Shootouts Start 11:30 AM
Track Closes 5 PM

Hospitality Room
If you're attending the fall event, plan on visiting our Hospitality Room Friday night at the Comfort Inn in Alma! Videos! Photos from prior races! Free munchies and a cash bar! Chat with muscle car fans, and attend presentations by our guest speakers! Bench race with the other muscle car owners! Most of all, see old friends, make new ones, and have FUN!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can go here for more information, results, rules, ect.. http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/

It is a great event with great cars including many Pontiacs.

JHOdy

  #89  
Old 11-21-2007, 10:02 AM
Mark Weymouth Mark Weymouth is offline
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Thanks Threefidee, I can always count on you to cover me. Threefidee is one of our racers that it took me a while (years) to convince to come out and play. He is hooked and his motor was in the 350 HO comparo article. That baby HO convert runs awfully nice and he drives it well. He used to be a national show car guy now he is a racer first and convinced his neighbor that we need to prep his '71 Goat (455 HO) for this season. Of course he is such a good friend he dicided that I should be enlisted to help work on it also...

To find the best coverage look up MuscleCar Enthusiast. They always do a full round by round coverage of each shootout. They will include all 76 pairings. It should be out soon. Last year several other magazines had at least partial coverage.

The other hot spot for the Pure Stock crowd is at v8buick.com. They have a seperate forum for us. Look for the "Other Guy's" section and we are the Pure Stockers portion. Usually Frank or Donny will post the entire time sheet for race rounds and often Donny likes to make lists like the fastest small blocks, top 20 60' times...

The weekend really is enjoyable and everyone and anyone can find a group worthy of their time. Almost all the racers are willing to help a newbie or try and convince you to bring your car next year. They will give you about 90% of the tricks it takes to be fast also. The last 10% is earned.

Mark

  #90  
Old 11-21-2007, 10:18 AM
Mark Weymouth Mark Weymouth is offline
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I forgot to mention this but as a Pure Stock racer this was a great opportunity. High Performance Pontiac gave me the honor of putting together an all Pure Stock Pavement Pounders. We got four cars run at Norwalk in August and the other 18 run in September at Stanton. We will have four cars per month for some time to come. That dedicated over half a years worth of Pavement Pounder articles to us! I would love to show Tom and the rest of the staff at HPP our thanks by having lots of guy's pick up those issues.

This would really help out anyone interested in our racing. It shows all the cars setups form motor specs to chassis specs. We had a wide cross section of cars from small cubed 350 HO's, 389/421 Tri-powers, 400/455 HO's, RA 400, RA II/III/IV's, SD's and more run. We tried to spread it out the best we could.

The track was a bit slick at Stanton and most of the cars did not set personal bests but everyone was running solid times. Norwalk was warm and it slowed one of the four just a touch but the other three set their top time ever as I recall.

Mark

  #91  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:05 AM
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ditto what mark and jHOdy said. I've been in the Pure Stock racing since attending my first event in 99. This year I decided to bite the bullet and just do it so I bought my 70 GT-37 and haven't regretted it one bit. Although the car has drained my wallet. But I can't begin to explain the fun I had this past year actually competing in this (and the event at Martin, MI in June) versus spectating. My other car was built to complete in PSMCDR but sadly the body isn't up to snuff so I can't enter it (rust and primer). no clue when I'm going to get around to fixing that, hence the GT-37 purchase.

FYI, Dan Jensen does read this and v8buick, but he rarely posts anything.

Chris

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1970.5 Pontiac Tempest GT-37
400ci 4bbl 4sp 3.90:1
12.73 @ 112.42 2011 Pure Stock Drags
12.71 @ 110.58 2013 Martin FAST/FS race
12.70 @ 111.74 2014 Pure Stock Drags
12.60 @ 111.66 2015 Martin FAST/FS race

1968 Pontiac Firebird 400
TH400/3.08 open
export car - factory heater delete
14.48 @ 95.86 w/ 2.14 60' 2018 Pure Stock Drags
14.47 @ 95.02 w/ 2.16 60' 2019 Martin FAST/FS race
  #92  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge273
Mark, Great information! I know Dan Jensen keeps careful spreadsheets for each PS race. Does he ever publish these results? Can you convince him to type a few lines.
Mike, you need to bring the 71 Judge out. We'll work on some T-n-T next year, but clear you calendar for June. Usually the 3rd weekend IIRC and we'll go up to Martin, MI for the FAST/Factory Stock event.

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1970.5 Pontiac Tempest GT-37
400ci 4bbl 4sp 3.90:1
12.73 @ 112.42 2011 Pure Stock Drags
12.71 @ 110.58 2013 Martin FAST/FS race
12.70 @ 111.74 2014 Pure Stock Drags
12.60 @ 111.66 2015 Martin FAST/FS race

1968 Pontiac Firebird 400
TH400/3.08 open
export car - factory heater delete
14.48 @ 95.86 w/ 2.14 60' 2018 Pure Stock Drags
14.47 @ 95.02 w/ 2.16 60' 2019 Martin FAST/FS race
  #93  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:12 AM
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As soon as my 71 HO GT-37 is complete I plan on running in the PS too. I'll need all the tricks in advance.

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  #94  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:49 AM
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Default Question.

If we get this 455 HO forum going, can a 350 HO guy chime in once in a while ?

The first trick.... Build it so it does not break. Do not chince on parts. If you buy good qualitly parts and have a competent person put everything together the worst things that happens is you may wear out a clutch or a Posi....Right Mark ?????

jHOdy

  #95  
Old 11-21-2007, 12:37 PM
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I got the first few tricks covered. Haven't blown a posi yet, as clutches/z bars are another thing!

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  #96  
Old 11-21-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threefidee
If we get this 455 HO forum going, can a 350 HO guy chime in once in a while ?

The first trick.... Build it so it does not break. Do not chince on parts. If you buy good qualitly parts and have a competent person put everything together the worst things that happens is you may wear out a clutch or a Posi....Right Mark ?????

jHOdy

So jhody,tell us what sort of times your "Wee Ho" is turning?
I'm guessing it's in a 68 Bird?

A lady friend of mine had a 69 350 HO in a Verdoro (triple) Green bird convert,years back
Never actually had it to the track,but it sure felt like it pulled BETTER than MY 350 hp 400!

325 HP out of 350 cubes is really IMPRESSIVE for a factory HP rating! (that motor is the REAL Rodney Dangerfield!) NOBODY knows or says much about it.

  #97  
Old 11-21-2007, 02:09 PM
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Talking Baby HO

Mark refers to my car as the "Baby HO". It is fitting I guess. Yes, 68 bird in the pic. It dyno'd last year at 330 hp and 395 torque. Just a tick above the factory rating. It runs in the 13.90's @ 97-98 mph if you let it cool for an hour or more between runs, 14.0's hot lapping with 60ft times now in the 2.0's Not to bad for a car with me in it that is just under 3,900 pounds.

Thanks for asking,

Jody

  #98  
Old 11-21-2007, 07:08 PM
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I wanna play too - but the races are SOOOOOO far away. You guys in the East, upper Midwest and Northern states don't know how good you have it, LOL!

Maybe in a year or two.

I'm NOT gonna beat on Sundance car (with it's #'s HO block) until I rebuild the tired, original engine AND install a set of forged H-beams!

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  #99  
Old 11-21-2007, 07:33 PM
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Wow!!!! I'm really starting to like my 71 455 HO 4-Spd car better by the minute. This is a great thread. Mike, thanks for parting with your car -I'm having lots more fun with it than I was with the money in the bank - and it looks like you'll be putting that money to good use on your HO GT-37 project. Keep me posted on how that goes 'cause I want to come see that baby run! Heck, I may even bring my car next year - Lloyd, you can hop on AirTran, fly to Atlanta and ride up with me - It'll be fun, you'll see.

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  #100  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OVERULD
Lloyd, you can hop on AirTran, fly to Atlanta and ride up with me - It'll be fun, you'll see.
Oh no, BJ - if I go I'm gonna be bringing my GTO - rowing some gears and boiling some Polyglas GTs!

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