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Old 12-01-2020, 11:17 AM
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Default I'm having a Tremec 5 speed installed

There's a reputable transmission shop near me in Fort Lauderdale, FL (ProMotion Performance) that will be installing a Tremec 5 speed in my 67 GTO. Currently, this car has a Turbo 400 automatic with a shifter on the column. So modifications are required such as a hole cut in the floor pan, a clutch pedal, modified brake pedal, bell housing and hydraulic set up to name a few of the modifications. The estimate I received is $5894.74. I took pictures of the 3 sheet estimate so it may look somewhat fuzzy. Much of the terminology and parts listed is beyond my knowledge. I’m just posting this in case anyone has thoughts or suggestions and comments on the estimated price.
The intended use of my GTO is cruising around town and interstate driving where 70 to 80 MPH is common. No track of racing intended. I thought about having a 6 speed installed but I really don’t see much benefit here unless someone can convince me otherwise.
ProMotion also installs and rebuilds “rears”. At first I was going to have them install a complete Moser rear but I think I will be fine if they just rebuild the current 12 bolt Chevy rear that is currently installed in this car.
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:37 AM
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That's a quote for a T5, not a typical TKO500 or 600. I see they are at least putting the steel cluster gear support in it which is the weak link in that trans, and a new 9310 alloy gear set used so that would make me feel a little better. Should be good for 500 ft lbs. or so. I swapped in a similar T5 in my sons car not long ago and love the gear ratios in this trans (2.95/1.91/1.34/1/.63 Very nice to drive with a close ratio spread and works excellent with 3.73 gears and 26" tire.

I just got a quote from American Powertrain to do another 68-72 A-body, using the new TKX trans (TKO is a thing of the past now) Converting an auto to the manual, needing clutch pedals, a Quick Time bellhousing, all new mechanical clutch linkage, shifter, clutch, etc....and it came in at $5457.99. The new TKX trans is $2795 by itself. This quote doesn't include a driveshaft.

I run a TKO in another car here. While a great trans, I've always complained about the gear spread. 1-2 isn't bad, but 3rd is a horrible drop, then they use the same Muncie close ratio 3-4 setup with 1.28/1 so the trans is kind of a mixed bag of close and wide ratios. Great trans otherwise though and the .64 overdrive is nice. Frustrating part is now this trans has been replaced with the TKX, and they left the same damn mixed wide and close ratio gear set in there but took overdrive out of it with a .68
Baaaaa They got it backwards.

Anyway, You'll be happy when the swap is done and wonder why you didn't do it sooner.
I'd leave the 12 bolt in the car, plenty strong, and save your money there.

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Last edited by Formulajones; 12-01-2020 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 12-01-2020, 11:43 AM
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My American Powertrain estimate with all the goodies including all the goodies was less than that a year ago, including driveshaft. They will haggle and price meet

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Old 12-01-2020, 11:50 AM
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My American Powertrain estimate with all the goodies including all the goodies was less than that a year ago, including driveshaft. They will haggle and price meet
Not anymore. You bought when they still had the TKO's available which is a $2200 transmission.

They have been replaced with the all new TKX design and that trans is $2800 right out of the box. So quotes are automatically $600 higher right from the start.

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Old 12-01-2020, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
That's a quote for a T5, not a typical TKO500 or 600. I see they are at least putting the steel cluster gear support in it which is the weak link in that trans, and a new 9310 alloy gear set used so that would make me feel a little better. Should be good for 500 ft lbs. or so. I swapped in a similar T5 in my sons car not long ago and love the gear ratios in this trans (2.95/1.91/1.34/1/.63 Very nice to drive with a close ratio spread and works excellent with 3.73 gears and 26" tire.

I just got a quote from American Powertrain to do another 68-72 A-body, using the new TKX trans (TKO is a thing of the past now) Converting an auto to the manual, needing clutch pedals, a Quick Time bellhousing, all new mechanical clutch linkage, shifter, clutch, etc....and it came in at $5457.99. The new TKX trans is $2795 by itself. This quote doesn't include a driveshaft.
Thank you Formulajones; this is exactly the kind of info I need. Your knowledge of tranny's well exceeds what I know. I'm certainly not interested in cutting corners nor am I trying to save money. I'd rather spend the extra money now and be satisfied with what I'm buying.
So the TKO500 or 600 is what I should have installed? I'll be talking with ProMotion hopefully today.

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Old 12-01-2020, 11:57 AM
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I have an extreme TKO600 and I paid 2500 and some change. Plus I got the white lightning shifter and an aluminum driveshaft. My out the door price was probably close to that but I got hydraulic conversion and bellhousing and basically everything they had but crossmember

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Old 12-01-2020, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jimib View Post
Thank you Formulajones; this is exactly the kind of info I need. Your knowledge of tranny's well exceeds what I know. I'm certainly not interested in cutting corners nor am I trying to save money. I'd rather spend the extra money now and be satisfied with what I'm buying.
So the TKO500 or 600 is what I should have installed? I'll be talking with ProMotion hopefully today.
Well,,,,no not really. That T5 from ProMotion is a pretty stout piece. They change the entire gear set in those things with the 9310 alloy, good cluster support, and a few other tricks to make it a very capable trans. They've been doing it for years and there are a lot of these T5's out there now. They hold up pretty well. I think their site rates them for 600hp and pretty sure at least 500 ft lbs. Maybe more. They are much smaller and very easy to package too.

Like I mentioned, I put one in my sons car and love it. Plan to push more power through it in the future, but it's a really nice shifting transmission with a perfect gear ratio setup.

I do like the TKO-600, which is rated for 600 ft lbs. They are proven and been around for decades, I just complain about the gear ratio spread, otherwise I like it. But if I had a cruiser, with a mild combo and not much dragstrip racing in mind, that T5 is where I'd look. It's basically the same thing that McCloud is offering with their 5-speed muscle car trans. The only difference is they had a new housing cast for the GM guys, but it uses the same gear set that ProMotion is selling.

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Old 12-01-2020, 12:07 PM
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I have an extreme TKO600 and I paid 2500 and some change. Plus I got the white lightning shifter and an aluminum driveshaft. My out the door price was probably close to that but I got hydraulic conversion and bellhousing and basically everything they had but crossmember
The extreme shift upgrade is about $400, I do the same thing when I order a 600.
The new TKX doesn't need it, with new triple syncos and 7000 rpm capability right out of the box, but it's $600 higher on price.
I basically quote the same thing, white lightening shifter, but I use their "X" adjustable cross members that is another $350 and worth the price. I have a local shop build my driveshafts that run about $350 for a 600hp piece with 1330 joints. Price goes up on that for more HP with 1350 joints and billet parts.

My quote above is also with a $200 discount because I'm a returning customer.

This stuff ain't cheap anymore. Darn bell housing alone is $700 lol
They do charge a little too much for the mechanical linkage setup though. $300 for that and complete linkage setups brand new from many vendors is more like $150

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Old 12-01-2020, 02:00 PM
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Yeah I paid 700 for the bellhousing and I upgraded to 1350 u joints

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Old 12-01-2020, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Well,,,,no not really. That T5 from ProMotion is a pretty stout piece. They change the entire gear set in those things with the 9310 alloy, good cluster support, and a few other tricks to make it a very capable trans. They've been doing it for years and there are a lot of these T5's out there now. They hold up pretty well. I think their site rates them for 600hp and pretty sure at least 500 ft lbs. Maybe more. They are much smaller and very easy to package too.

Like I mentioned, I put one in my sons car and love it. Plan to push more power through it in the future, but it's a really nice shifting transmission with a perfect gear ratio setup.

I do like the TKO-600, which is rated for 600 ft lbs. They are proven and been around for decades, I just complain about the gear ratio spread, otherwise I like it. But if I had a cruiser, with a mild combo and not much dragstrip racing in mind, that T5 is where I'd look. It's basically the same thing that McCloud is offering with their 5-speed muscle car trans. The only difference is they had a new housing cast for the GM guys, but it uses the same gear set that ProMotion is selling.
I’m looking at spec’s for the TKX on the Tremec home page (https://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=183) which list three gear ratio options for GM. You stated they took the OD out (is this the 0.63?) and replaced it with a 0.68. Is there really much difference between 0.63 and a 0.68?

The reason I didn’t do this sooner was the lack of funds which is not really an issue now.

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Old 12-01-2020, 05:41 PM
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The TKO-600's could be had with a .64, which I prefer. Going .68 is the difference of about 5mph, which is a significant change.

For what ever reason, some people complained about the rpm drop from 4th to 5th. However that never bothered me, even in little 300 ci engines, I never had an issue with it. My complaint was the 1.89 to 1.28 drop from 2nd to 3rd, it's quite a dip, twice as much as the 4th-5th drop. Yet for some reason Tremec decided to address the 4th-5th drop that I felt needed no attention, but did nothing with the 2-3 drop. Makes no sense to me but whatever.

To me the whole reason to do an overdrive is to actually HAVE an overdrive ratio that drops the cruise rpm. I would have rather seen them leave the .64 overdrive ratio alone and work on the first four gears.

That's why I really like that T5. The gear spread is damn near perfect with no huge rpm drop between shifts, nice for cruising around town, no need to even use 2nd when slowing for a turn, yet they still kept a .63 overdrive in that one.

Just my feeling on the subject, the closer you get to .70 and beyond for overdrive, you start loosing the benefits of having it.
.75 in the 4L80E isn't that exciting but better than nothing, .78 in the gear vendor for me doesn't work well enough unless you run 3.55 gears or less out back. Otherwise you're spending a whole lot of money for an overdrive with not a lot to gain. For my $5000 I want an overdrive.

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Old 12-01-2020, 06:57 PM
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I pretty much echo the sentiments above. That said, I've driven a Geforce T5 equipped mustang in the past and that transmission is annoying as hell with the straight cut gears. It audibly whines in basically all forward gears.

Maybe they've done something about that more recently, since I'm talking about a trans for a car I drove about 10-12 years ago. But for a street car, knowing that, it wouldn't even be on my radar, regardless of it's gear spread or torque handling ability.

For a pretty stock street car that you want a manual and an overdrive, it's hard to beat the TKO 500 or 600 that's being discussed.

If money really isn't an object, it's really hard to go wrong with that T56. They shift well and it's actually nice to have the shallow and deep overdrive. You've got 5th for those in-city streets where you want a bit of rpm drop without lugging the car around, then you've got 6th for the highway allowing you to cruise at high speed at real low rpms. The problem of course is that with that T56, you will be significantly cutting up the trans tunnel. That may be less of a concern for you considering you've got to add a hole to your floor pan already as it is.

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Old 12-01-2020, 07:26 PM
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That was the amazing thing. Even with the 600 everyone told me I would have to cut my tunnel but I didn’t. It went right in with just a shifter hole. BUT my body bushings are new

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Old 12-01-2020, 07:51 PM
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I pretty much echo the sentiments above. That said, I've driven a Geforce T5 equipped mustang in the past and that transmission is annoying as hell with the straight cut gears. It audibly whines in basically all forward gears.

Maybe they've done something about that more recently, since I'm talking about a trans for a car I drove about 10-12 years ago. But for a street car, knowing that, it wouldn't even be on my radar, regardless of it's gear spread or torque handling ability.

For a pretty stock street car that you want a manual and an overdrive, it's hard to beat the TKO 500 or 600 that's being discussed.

If money really isn't an object, it's really hard to go wrong with that T56. They shift well and it's actually nice to have the shallow and deep overdrive. You've got 5th for those in-city streets where you want a bit of rpm drop without lugging the car around, then you've got 6th for the highway allowing you to cruise at high speed at real low rpms. The problem of course is that with that T56, you will be significantly cutting up the trans tunnel. That may be less of a concern for you considering you've got to add a hole to your floor pan already as it is.
I've heard the term "double overdrive and maybe this is where the T56 comes into the conversation. On the Tremec homepage, under the Magnum category, there are two options for GM;

GM TUET11009 LS 700 No Hyd Mech/Elec 26 / 31 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .80 .63 2.90
GM TUET11012 LS 700 No Hyd Mech/Elec 26 / 31 2.97 2.10 1.46 1.00 .74 .50 2.90

So one of the options is a 5th gear of 0.74 and a 6th gear of 0.50. So at 80 MPH with a 3.73 rear, I would be curious to know the RPM's.

At first, I thought this would be a lot of shifting. But now I'm thinking for local driving I'd be using 1st through 4th gear all of the time and 5th once in a while and only needing 6th gear "only" if on the Interstate.

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Old 12-01-2020, 08:17 PM
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JMHO,IF you have a car that you can get good factory clutch linkage I have not found it necessary to use a hyd clutch.I have done 3 hyd in 1963 tempest because there was no good man linkage.I think its a waste of money.Tom

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Old 12-01-2020, 09:15 PM
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Just an opinion - based on a whole lotta ‘been there and done that’ with the TKO-600 and a 461 Stroker. 1st gear in the TKO-600 (2.87) is hella’ deep compared to what was available with a ‘traditional’ close-ratio Muncie (2.20) or even the GM automatics of the day (2.48-TH400 / 2.52-TH350). I know automatics provide the added assistance of a torque converter, so the traditional close-ratio Muncie is a bit more ‘apples-to-apples’ comparison to the TKO-600. And all of this is pure opinion based on my own experiences with a 2.25 stroke 461 that makes a TON of torque off-idle. So here goes:

A traditional ‘close ratio’ Muncie with a 2.20 1st Gear and a 3.91 ring gear gives you 8.60 overall reduction. And we all know how much fun you can have with a ‘mildly’ built 455, a 4-speed and a 3.91 posi. Step up to a 4.11 ring gear and you are at 9.04 overall reduction in 1st gear with that traditional close-ratio Muncie.

O.K. What does a 3.73 ring gear look like behind a TKO-600 with a 2.87 1st gear? You are at 10.70 overall reduction. In my opinion, practically useless on the street behind a long stroke, big torque 455 or 461. To calm overall 1st gear reduction back to a very aggressive 9:0ish with the 2.87 1st gear in the TKO-600, you need a 3.13 ring gear, which of course is not available. 3.23 ring gear gives you 9.27 overall reduction behind the TKO-600 - which is even MORE aggressive than 4.11s behind a traditional close-ratio Muncie. You could actually stick with a 3.08 ring gear behind your TKO-600 and still be deeper in 1st than your close-ratio Muncie and 3.91s out back (8.83 vs 8.60).

So, I see going 3.73s with a TKO-600 in order to make the .64 OD useful at 70-75 mph gives you a 1st gear that is ridiculously deep for a 455/461 that makes God’s plenty torque right off idle. I think it makes more sense to match your ring gear to 1st in the TKO-600 (3.23 or maybe even a 3.08??) and then let the .82 OD calm you down at speeds above 70 mph.

I’ve got a 3.23 ring gear behind my TKO-600 with a .82 OD. That gives me 9.27 overall reduction in 1st for scary - but workable - gear reduction off the line and 2.64 overall reduction in OD - which means cruising at 75 mph at 2500 rpms. As strong as my 461 is, I could have easily gone with a 3.08 ring gear and sacrificed nothing off the line and dropped another 100-200 RPMs on the highway.

I ordered my TKO with the .64 OD when I was running 3.42s and I hated it. Anywhere between 65-75 (where I did most of my highway driving) was sort of a ‘no man’s land’ where 1:1 with the 3.42 ring gear had my car screaming at well over 3,000 rpms and the .64 OD dropped me down to around 1,800 rpms. No, the car wasn’t technically ‘lugging’ or ‘pinging’ - but it felt really ‘soft’ at that speed/rpm and if I wanted to accelerate or pass anyone, I had to drop a gear back to 4th where the tach SHOT up from 2,000 to well over 3,000 RPMs. Dropping the ring gear back to 3.23 and replacing the .64 main shaft in my TKO with the .82 main shaft was the perfect compromise for me and for my driving. Others may disagree. I would not go back to 3.42s (let alone 3.73s) and the .64 OD for any reason.

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Old 12-01-2020, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimib View Post
I've heard the term "double overdrive and maybe this is where the T56 comes into the conversation. On the Tremec homepage, under the Magnum category, there are two options for GM;

GM TUET11009 LS 700 No Hyd Mech/Elec 26 / 31 2.66 1.78 1.30 1.00 .80 .63 2.90
GM TUET11012 LS 700 No Hyd Mech/Elec 26 / 31 2.97 2.10 1.46 1.00 .74 .50 2.90

So one of the options is a 5th gear of 0.74 and a 6th gear of 0.50. So at 80 MPH with a 3.73 rear, I would be curious to know the RPM's.

At first, I thought this would be a lot of shifting. But now I'm thinking for local driving I'd be using 1st through 4th gear all of the time and 5th once in a while and only needing 6th gear "only" if on the Interstate.
According to the Wallace Racing calculator, 80mph with a .5 overdrive and a 3.73 ratio with 26” tires would be about 1800 rpm at 80mph.

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Old 12-01-2020, 09:44 PM
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I have 3.70 with the .64 overdrive and 26 inch tall tires

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Old 12-01-2020, 10:02 PM
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That was the amazing thing. Even with the 600 everyone told me I would have to cut my tunnel but I didn’t. It went right in with just a shifter hole. BUT my body bushings are new
LOL yeah you'll hear that a lot. I told a few some secrets I do to get them in without cutting up floors a long while back.

The new TKX is smaller yet.

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Old 12-01-2020, 10:03 PM
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JMHO,IF you have a car that you can get good factory clutch linkage I have not found it necessary to use a hyd clutch.I have done 3 hyd in 1963 tempest because there was no good man linkage.I think its a waste of money.Tom
Ditto

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