[dancolkate]

It's likely there are a number of members that have access. To get a good idea who are candidates, go to member search and limit the search to >1500 posts.

1st guess = JM & CC

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

NO it's not me! And I was betting about the givers, not the recievers.

So when's the party?

Get on over here to Wisconsin and we can start it anytime! I figured right or wrong, I couldn't loose

[The Boss]

Steve,

What got your fur up over this, did you get wronged somehow recently. Knowing who you know, I would think that you could get one if you had to....JMHO. And for what it's worth - it either is or it isn't - the car is the biggest piece of the puzzle, if the block is questionable, then it's NOM anyways. If you're upset that some super rare cars are becoming numbers matching because of the access to information, then just chalk that up to the credibility of those with the cars.

[Steve Hoog]

Noway, I'm not mad about any particular situation. I am very open and think supression of data like this is plain stupid, but that isn't what this is about. Most people aren't aware the data for the Engine is there, because very few have ever seen it. So I just toot the horn a little when it comes up, and the Baron whips out the proof. Sweet. I've seen it before, but it's not been available for me to share. Privacy thing again.

Now the bright side is there will be a hellish party in Wisconsin at some point in the future...

[dancolkate]

Steve...Steve....Steve
You could have gotten the numbers when/if you needed them. Now you've made a public stink about it and the Boss might think less of you. Give me a break. What happened to "the good of the Hobby?"
What a joke.

[Steve Hoog]

Dan are you telling me you think its ok for the few and the proud to have control over this? Technically it makes no difference whether this information is shared, because it doesn't protect anything, point is that it would be forged also.

Now if your point is that for the very few to have this information and for it to remain a secret is good for the hobby? How in the world can you justify that?

For it to be public knowledge that this information can be had; but to still restrict access, now that has its merits.

If there was a governing body regulating the data; that would work. But as of now it's a back room good ole boy secret society inner loop.

The other bad thing is; that I've heard through the grapevine, this information fades off at some point and is very spotty from 69 up. So who decides the good for the hobby now, the same people that hold the key? Certainly not us out here in the trenches.

[dancolkate]

Steve,
Sorry for the misunderstanding. My post was entirely sarcastic.

Let me digress. As the recent buyer of a 69 GTO one of my first tasks was to verify all the numbers. I posted the build sheet, pics of the data plate, and pics of the stamped engine VIN and sequence number. The question was simple: Can someone verify the sequence number belongs with my car.

No-one responded with documented verification. If the data is available, and mine is not a good example of when it's needed then the only logical explanation is that this group of people has other motives. And it pisses me off considering the legitimacy of my request.

[Steve Hoog]

Oh yeah, I remember that now.

I would think I'm more on your side. Personally I say let information out; but if the overall veiw is that it needs to remain limited, then so be it. Follow the masses, but the way it's limited right now is NOT the correct way in my opinion.

[The Boss]

Steve,

I agree with you, and don't think less of you . I think the issue is that those who can, use the information to be sure that the money they are spending for a rare and/or high dollar car is justified and that even though we don't necessarily buy those kind of cars, our money is no less worthy of that kind of security.

I still say it's the car that's worth the money, the cars I buy to keep I will always have, so their value (although higher or lower because of the block) is only what it is to me. The cars I don't plan to keep, I couldn't be bothered with.

Chris

Interesting side note: The 4 sheets I have collected over the years on the 68 RA I & II cars all have 000000 in the engine unit number location - for what it's worth.

Correct that, the 2 positive RA I cars have unit numbers - my car which was built 05/08 and the car my XW block came from built 06/24 have the zero's.

[Steve Hoog]

We should feel fortunate to get what we do from PHS, and be happy at that. It is MUCH more than many of the others have.

Chris will you be joining us for a party?

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by steved400

We should feel fortunate to get what we do from PHS, and be happy at that. It is MUCH more than many of the others have.

Chris will you be joining us for a party?

Just tell me when and where, Jack & Coke for me (cola).

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I agree the engine unit sequence number information could be a two-edged sword, but I'll take those cuts both coming and going if this information would just become available to us all.

I also agree with the view points and sentiments of Dan and Steve completely.

And I know there is nothing much we the "average collectors" can do about getting this information other than trying to make more people aware of what this is and what it means. And that it does exist !

I think we are at a good point in time for this information to be vital, necessary and made available. We are now in the middle of the "second big surge" of popularity and price increases of these Cars we love. Consider how many (the larger percentage) of these "Money Cars" have already been restored and are flipping from hand to hand. I'm sure the sequence numbers would not match on probably half of these otherwise "numbers matching" Cars. Wouldn't it be especially nice to be able to determine this before flopping out the whopper jack bucks today or tomorrow or the next auction ?

My case in point that this information is obtainable is this: The early GTO's PHS packets come with a copy of billing history card. Here we have an identical format/type billing history card for a 1969 model. My common sense may be less than average, but it tells me if PHS has the access to billing history cards for 64-68; and 1969 used the same billing history card format as those Cars (and we have one to establish proof) then certainly they would have them for 1969 as well - and why not.

The reason why they don't use the billing card history format for the later cars could be any one of many different reasons:

1-The invoice copy method uses less paper and printing ink, and takes less time to prepare for customers versus printing the several sheets of a dealer order and manually filling it in with yellow highlights (de-coding). It could be just a cost/effort/waste conservation effort.

2-It could just be a "We know things that you don't know, and we like it like that" syndrome.

3-It could just be something that allows those who can obtain or actually have the access to this info to obtain special favors or special considerations in return for this knowledge.

4-And the list could go on and on from here.....perhaps PHS does NOT have this info (which seems strange to me - but still just to be fair). BUT SOMEBODY DOES, and we sincerely request it be shared. And we also have the same shade of green on our money as everyone else.

I thirst for knowledge and truth in things that I have heavy interest in. And Pontiacs are more than a habit, they are my vise. Sad maybe, but true. I personally would pay extra for each PHS if it were necessary or an option, in order to obtain the billing card history WITH engine unit sequence number.

The billing history card contains much more info than the invoice. Some things on some Cars are a no-cost alternate selection. Such as certain year Trans Am's - the Rally 2 or Honeycomb wheel is a no-cost choice, and so is the transmission selection. The invoice will not tell you which the Car was built with, the billing history card will tell you if it was a Honeycomb wheel or a Rally 2 wheel. It's the next best thing to a buildsheet in that regard. But even better than a buildsheet when it shows the engine unit sequence number.

My Cars all have the correct original engines, my concern is the next Car I might trade for, or buy outright after selling one or a few of mine.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Man - I type like He|| sometimes - don't I . (shut up......pull my finger)

Just adding : the owner of the Car will not return my correspondence.

1970 T/A Ram IV invoice does not state transmission type (no-cost alternate selection)

1973 T/A SD 455 invoice does not state transmission type or wheel type (both are no-cost alternate selections).

Point being, without buildsheet (easily found if there is one and destroyed if necessary during restoration) and without billing card history, either of these Big Buckers could be altered to 4speed (more $$$) and no one could dispute. An extra 20,000 - 30,000+ value added to a restored example, just like that.

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

Chris will you be joining us for a party?

WOW....I may need some RSVPS here so that I can stock accordingly

[sawyer]

Gentlemen:
I agree this information should be made avail. by PHS (assuming they have it-and why wouldn't they have it?), even on an optional additional charge basis.
Where is the unit number, as opposed to the vin #, located on the engine on a 69?

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by sawyer

Gentlemen:
I agree this information should be made avail. by PHS (assuming they have it-and why wouldn't they have it?), even on an optional additional charge basis.
Where is the unit number, as opposed to the vin #, located on the engine on a 69?

It's the 6 digit number directly above the block code (YS).

[dancolkate]

Steve,
You never said if my first guess was close.

[Steve Hoog]

Anyone ever watch Hogan's Hero's, I loved that line Schultz used to say.

"I know nothing, nothing!!!"

[Ron Landis]

as usual. The "no cost option" was the reasoning for my two- barrel XX code GTO being listed as a YS car, although my block vin matches title, and original owner confirms. I have seen factory two barrel '69s list this as a "regular gas engine...no charge option" on other car's PHS. Added note of interest, when Jim Mattison was helping me check legitimacy of the '68 XS block I had, he didn't bother to ask for MUN. I woud have thought he would to clear up anything this controversial. Must not have deemed it necessary. Anyway, the plot thickens...as they say. Ponchogate? [lol] Ron

[dr-doug]

I think Schultz said "I see nothing"....
I think it was in rooster cogburn, that one of the lesser stars said "I know nuh thang.....I am mearly a messenger" said with the appropriate nascar drawl...



I am very brand specific when it comes to my collection, is there not a "shelby registry" that documents all the cars? why can that not be done for "Judges"?..The color, vin, options, the works...I would think it would be like taking a road grader to our passion, smooth out all the major bumps. Someone explain to me why a national database cannot be developed, or revealed. I think it can, and should be undertaken soon, before more than 10% of our judges are valued at 100K +.