[brianberes]

Real boobs, fake boobs there all good and we love them.

[SWEETJUDGE]

Enough about boobs.......... I remeber when a pair of boobs were a couple of dumb guys...........
In todays day & age THE BUYER most be MORE knowledgable than the seller.
DONT take anybodies word. Do your homework. Get educated. If people get a change to make an extra buck they will. I guess im against the clones if its intenet is to mislead but if your upfront about it i guess no harm.

[TR]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

It's funny how the Judges have taken off in value & desireability. In the 70's many of them were stripped of their stripes & spoilers & turned into "regular" GTO's since a Judge was like a joke that most people didn't get.
I think I'm going to buy a Judge & clone a GTO with it!

I've seen that too, well into the 80's/early 90's. 'The Judge' prior to today's BJ crazed musclecar iconic status was regarded as kinda' kitchsy and somewhat silly by many, though the car WAS/IS badass. I always liked them, but I always felt like a KISS fan in the late-70's when their commercialism began to have a life of it's own, supersceding the music. It always was about the music to me, but everyone else thought you were just in it for all the hype. When I found my GTO 7 years ago I wasn't looking for a Judge at all, but the one I found happened to be one. I darn near thought about De-Judging it just to avoid all the "is it real or not" ( it is ) questions. Of course I didn't as I liked the look and like the relative rarity as well. Seems there are more around than there were made originally.

[FireGoat_Ben]

I've never been offended by the cloning of any GTO or Judge as long as the car is not aimed at decieving the next buyer. I've got a friend who has a beautiful '68 LeMans convertible that is now living life as a GTO. His intention is not to ever sell the car, but I'm sure if it ever was to hit the market, it would be disclosed. I also get tired of clicking on links to auctions or whatever that say "GTO", only to find that they are a VERY poor attempt at a clone (i.e. badges in the grills alone or stickers only).
I'm "cloning" my '69 convertible GTO a Judge, but only to suit me. If the car is ever offered for sale, I'll either disclose it or "de-Judge" it.

[dr-doug]

I recognize those, that's my old girlfriend, Norma Stitz... .DW

[70RamAirIIITA]

Most people who create a "clone" cannot afford a "real" Judge or Trans Am, so they do the next best thing. You should consider yourself flattered and fortunate that so many people can only dream about owning a car like the one you already own. You shouldn't sit on your high horse looking down at everyone; rather, you should serve as a roll model for the Pontiac community, provide encouragement and act as a mentor, to be someone who people can look up to and respect.

Stating that you "hate" clones and "hate" the people who build them only shows your immaturity; it's time you grew up and realized you own something that most people who drool over these cars can only dream about owning.

[MCronkGTO]

Clones are a hate/love relationship. Everything said about affording and driving a real Judge today is a good reason to build one yourself. I always wanted a 69 Judge but with todays values I doubt I will ever own a real one or even a very well done clone.

However for every person who said they would never sell thier clone as the real deal, what happens when then next guy or the owner after that sells the car? With todays skyrocketing prices the temptation for some shady character to make a profit is definitely a problem. I recently attended a highly regarded auction (not BJ) and was surprised to see how many people paying big bucks did not know much about the car they were bidding on. They were bidding on the quality of the workmanship and taking the auction statements as fact. The information used during the auction was supplied by the seller and even though the auction website acknowledged this it was never announced to the bidding audience. I saw a half dozen 69 Judges that were not correct yet they were perceived as being so. One was supposedly a GTOAA Gold winner (A/C was converted to R-134 and even had the stickers on compressor etc...maybe conversion was after GTOAA judging?). Another interesting fall out from clones is that they can bring just about as much money as the real deal at an auction. I have seen modified cars bring more money than a correct concourse restoration. The problem is what happens to the REAL Judges when the waters become so muddy with clones and modified cars? Will they have to compete with the clones for top dollar? At this particular auction there were a boat load of Z-28 Camaro's most equipped with cross ram induction. There was a joke going around that there were more cross ram cars at this auction than were ever built.

I am all for doing what you want with your own car. If the collector car market were to collapse tomorrow I would enjoy my Pontiacs just as much as I do now. I don't think there is an easy answer to the clone question. All I can say is it will have an impact on the hobby and please do as much research as possible before buying anything.

MarkC

[pack69gto]

My car is a nos matching 69 gto, i do not want to build it into a judge clone, but i am thinking about adding the ram air option to it, Some people see it and say to me nice a 69 judge and i have to explain it is not one, But you can see were there would be a market to mislead a buyer, But personally i will never do that,And like lots are saying to buy a real judge in the condition of my car would be a bring your wallet event, so i will have to be satisfied with this car.

[gto4evr]

McronkGTO makes a good point but lets take it one step further. What does it tell you when a well done clone pulls the same money as a true GTO? Since it's the semantics of a cars history (not it's actual current presence), and a vin stamp, you are dealing with two physically IDENTICAL cars. Perceived value by the owners of Born GTO's doesn't change what the "common" folk are willing to pay. Again, I think the major attitude against clones is pushed by those above who don't like the rarity of the "true" cars diluted with cars that can be just as nice and not just virtually, but ACTUALLY identical. I'm not talking grille emblem swaps, I'm talking about COMPLETE change overs. This entire argument would be different if we were talking taking a 69 chevelle and swapping out all the chevy badges for GTO emblems and grafting two nostrils on the hood. A GTO was an OPTION on a Lemans at it's inception and regardless that they gave it it's own model number later, it was STILL just an upgraded option on the A body Tempest/Lemans.

If I take an automatic car and do a 4 spd changeover, is it a clone 4 speed? don't I have a clutch? Don't I have to shift gears while I'm driving? Does it drive or feel any different what-so-ever from a born 4 speed?

Get over your magic 242 vin number. When that goat rips down the street past you, are appreciating the car or are you wishing it would pull over so you can run over and check the vin code and cry "foul"? I own both a real Judge hardtop and a clone GTO vert so I'm on both sides of the ownership fence. I worried about what everyone would say when I cloned my 69 Lemans into a GTO convertible.....It was wasted time. All I've ever gotten was compliments, and what ever was said behind my back can stay there, it's MY CAR. Do I call it a GTO? Actually, I just call it "my '69 Convertible", Is it a GTO? Depends on how you define it. This is a circular argument. Next comes religion and politics!

[goatmanmitch]

Originally Posted by green70judge

I can't keep quiet anymore... I hate the fact that people are cloning Judges. Simply put if you don't have one...then accept it. .

I aspire to one day have so much money that I can buy a car that is unobtainable to most everyone except the wealthy, then I am going to post how I hate all these little people who want this car and the offensive way in which they obtain something visually close. How dare them! People who are not rich should just accept it. Peasants.

What an elitist remark. It is possible that you are not snob, even though it is hard to comprehend with a remark like "if you don't have one(if you don't have mega bucks)...then accept it". I hope your not a snob. But read what your original post says. Read the hidden meanings, intentional or not. Think things through before you hit the submit post button. You are looking down on many of us. This type of remark should be said in the company of your rich buddies, people who share the same air as you. Man, great for you that you have such a fine car, shame on you for your superiority. I'm glad that I have the privilege of knowing a half dozen or so Judge owners, among them Dennis and Scott here on the boards. And I am honored that I could go so far as to call them friends and that they don't look down on me. Or my 66, strong number four or weak number three condition LeMans. Now if I can just get a mig to weld that in the new tail panel thats been sitting in my basement I will be all set. Mitch

[gtohurstjudge]

I built my Judge convertible clone 33 years ago and am still enjoying
it. I never considered selling it to buy a real one back when real ones were
cheap because my car was always nicer and more rust free than the real ones that I found. I always considered the Judge option to be just another
GTO option like power windows or A/C. If my car was real I would be afraid to
drive it, couldn't afford the insurance on it, and would have succumbed to the temptation to cash it in for big bucks by now. In short, I love this car
and feel absolutely no need to apologize for building it. Many of the people who may be critical of my car were not even born yet when the conversion was done! If Pontiac had felt it was anything more than just another option they would have given it a different VIN number. Deception when selling the car is a nonissue at this point. Everyone on planet earth knows about PHS
by now. Also, rest assured there are plenty of Judges out there that are
a Lemans or GTO with a tag swap. At least I know what my car really is because I know the history of it.

[fastgtr]

I have both a tempest/67 GTO clone that I LOUDLY tell everyone is a clone-you couldnt get a two door post if ya tried in 67 in a gto and i wanted that extra stiffness, and i am lucky enough to have a new 06 GTO. Owned many GTO's of the real kind in the past, but the purists always guilted me out of doing anything I wanted to those-oh NO! That is anumbers matching car! So what! It's MY numbers matching car, and if i wanna f ing modify it, shut yer pie hole ya f ing moron! I gottas ask anywyas...what is it yo ya anyway? As long as you have your car as it is was configured, and you are happy, why piss on our parade?

[taximan]

Anybody who has seen gtohurstjudge's car, would never use the word clone in the same sentence. It is one of the 5 nicest vehicles ever to wear the Indian badge. IMHO

FYI, His "clone" usually wins best of show where ever it is displayed.

[fastgtr]

I have both a tempest/67 GTO clone with a 600 hp brute force motor that I LOUDLY tell everyone is a clone-you couldnt get a two door post if ya tried in 67 in a gto and i wanted that extra stiffness, and i am lucky enough to have a new 06 GTO. Owned many GTO's of the real kind in the past, but the purists always guilted me out of doing anything I wanted to those-oh NO! That is anumbers matching car! So what!?? It's MY numbers matching car, and if i wanna f ing modify it, shut yer pie hole! I gottas ask anywyas...what is it to ya anyway? As long as you have your car as it is was configured, and you are happy, why piss on our parade? I hate elitist thinking, and a muscle car is a muscle car, unless of course, you would like to race and put that axiom to the test!!! This is no different than the old stupid and childish game of FORD-found on road dead...etc. I hate that! A cool car is a cool car. I prefer Pontiacs, but I always go for cool. I prefer BC Rich handmade guitars over PRS too, but to each his own. Each Guitar has it's own strengths, and are considered to be the finest ever made. I own them both. Several examples of each actuallly. I will put my "hated" clone up against your GTO Judge anytime, or my new 06. Whatever ya like. The car doesn't make the driver, it's the driver that makes the car. And in our cases, it is usually a lot more true than the original coiner of the phrase intended! Save the hate for those who have actually HARMED you. Funny thing is, I have never had one comment other than, what a beautiful car. I have $50K tied up in it. I wouldnt dream of ruining a "real GTO and upsetting this guy so how do you win?

[69RamAirDave]

I like the Pontiacs a lot, but am also very involved in the bowties.

The whole "clone" thing has a different meaning with the non-ponchos. No PHS equivalent.

Clone, tribute, recreation is a much more sketchy area without PHS. It is one thing to make a car "look" like something it is not, but once you start messing around with the numbers, that moves into an entirely different area.

With some of the Chevys, its in the trim tag and the VIN means almost nothing. With the Pontiacs and the VIN tied to PHS, thats totally different.

PHS is tied to the VIN. If you tamper with the VIN, thats criminal. So thats where I see the difference in "clones" as far as the Pontiacs go.

Trim tag swapping is not illegal, although most times immoral and in attempt to deceive. Messing with the VIN to deceive is fraud, and should hold a seperation from the "clones".

So what Im saying is that a "clone" is done to "look" like a car. Once you start tampering with the numbers, it moves beyond clone and into fraud, and often times into an illegal area.

[green70judge]

Okay so I can admit when I am wrong...I shouldn't have used the word hate...and I understand some cases of cloning and agree with some of you... I was simply saying that I do not care for those people who try to decieve others by doing shady things with vins, stamps, etc.. I am not rich by any means or a snob.. just a guy who was at the right place and right time to pick up one of these cars 12 years ago when I was 17...I did not mean to offend anyone by any means, I apologize if I did.

[The Boss]

Well said, you took a beating here!

I appreciate any car where work has been done well. Jeremy (goatless) has a 69 convertible that is a beautiful car. Any of us would be proud to own and drive it......it's a Lemans. I have some cars, that when I finally get a chance to drive them, I may be too afraid to, and that's wrong. Like others have said before, we may be putting too much into the pedigree and loosing sight of what made them cool to begin with, hopping in, standing on the gas pedal and getting pushed back in your seat.

[1971WARBIRD]

don't feel to bad,as i think most of us feel the same way,it was just stated baddly maybe.i am against those who try to rip people off,and if you watch ebay at all,some people don't lie they just don't tell the whole truth,and alot of people bidding have no clue what they are looking at,you can tell this from some of their questions.
someone else opened up another point.is it right for a clone to go up against an original car at a show?now friday night at the burgerking cruise in,is one thing,but how do they class them at other shows?i don't know as i just cruise and don't really go to shows.i live 5 miles from the national trans am show and the only reason i will go is to talk to some of the venders that have became friends over the years,most times i wont even drive one of my ta's.

[MCronkGTO]

I will make a couple more comments.

First, you could get a 67 GTO 2 door post coupe, about 7,500 were made. Second, don't take the PHS paperwork as gospel. I work in multimedia/graphics and with todays graphic software tools anyone with a decent scanner and Photo Shop can alter documents with amazing results. This is driving banks crazy with fake checks, wire transfers, etc... In fact I think Jim Mattison of PHS commented he has even seen results that would have fooled him. You need to do more research. Check all the numbers, engine, transmission, sheet metal, date codes, etc... these will at least give you a better idea of the cars history and you can make an informed decision on whether or not to purchase and what it is worth.

Now here is the thing I really don't understand. Why do people feel they have to take a car and make it something it is not? I would appreciate a very nice Lemans more than I would a tired and beat GTO. What is wrong with a Tempest or Lemans? Why does a nice GTO have to become a Judge? In a sea of GTO's a comparitively restored Lemans or Tempest stands out and draws attention. As some have pointed out a Lemans or Tempest is very similar to a GTO and the Judge package was just an option on the GTO. So why not enjoy the car as it was born and do whatever modifications suit you. Just don't call it something it never was, that is what causes all the controversy.

[dr-doug]

My thoughts exactly. Here's a little grammer for you guys.

Clone, A genetic duplicate of an organism(living thing)

Copy, imitation of an original

Tribute, an expression of gratitude or honor

Pseudo, false

Fake, something false give a false appearance of

Which description best pertains to these cars that were not built originally the way they appear, according to "Websters"?......DW