[73T/A]

The Judge,a/c,hood tach,ralley wheels,safe-t-trac,etc.were all options.As mentioned earlier the Judge (option),did not have a specific VIN.It did not have specific sheet metal or frame.The Ram Air III engine could have been installed in any GTO.I say if you want to add the Judge (option) to your GTO have fun,as long as it is disclosed at time of sale that it is not factory optioned.

[goatmanmitch]

Originally Posted by green70judge

Okay so I can admit when I am wrong...I shouldn't have used the word hate...and I understand some cases of cloning and agree with some of you... I was simply saying that I do not care for those people who try to decieve others by doing shady things with vins, stamps, etc.. I am not rich by any means or a snob.. just a guy who was at the right place and right time to pick up one of these cars 12 years ago when I was 17...I did not mean to offend anyone by any means, I apologize if I did.

Well put. As the Boss said you took a good beating on this one. Glad to see that you can admit that your wording could've been a little different, we all say things that could have been worded in a better fashion. I can certainly respect people who admit faults. Best regards, Mitch

[pack69gto]

I really like this definition ( Clone, A genetic duplicate of an organism living thing) I know to 99.9 percent of us we treat are cars like they are alive,lol Which i beleive is pretty true. I love my car, hell i love all of your cars.lmao

[pontiacpetey]

Originally Posted by MCronkGTO

Now here is the thing I really don't understand. Why do people feel they have to take a car and make it something it is not? I would appreciate a very nice Lemans more than I would a tired and beat GTO. What is wrong with a Tempest or Lemans? Why does a nice GTO have to become a Judge? In a sea of GTO's a comparitively restored Lemans or Tempest stands out and draws attention. As some have pointed out a Lemans or Tempest is very similar to a GTO and the Judge package was just an option on the GTO. So why not enjoy the car as it was born and do whatever modifications suit you. Just don't call it something it never was, that is what causes all the controversy.

As a Lemans owner I have to say AMEN to that.

[gto4evr]

This thread will NEVER die....(especially if I keep posting to it!)

Here's a question for you guys.....Since clones never make the grade in your eyes, what do you say to the 400 pound girl that joins the gym, gets herself trim, learns how to really primp herself up and wins a beauty pagent? "Sorry miss, you're not really a prime example of female beauty....according to your trim tag you weigh 400 pounds and are not a real blonde. Please return your crown on your way out." Then we'll all boo her off the stage because she should have been content being 400 pounds and should have enjoyed it. Then we'll shoot her because her name was really Erma, not Michelle.

Also, just because someone clones a car, doesn't mean they don't like Lemans' too. I happen to also have a stock 71 Lemans and a 67 Lemans

I think I'll name my '67 Erma.......

[gregsgtos2]

mcronkgto,that supposed concours gold judge you were talking about was restored here,and it did get CONCOURS GOLD at 2006 GTOAA NATS.in case you didnt know,gold is 450-500 points.i put the r134 in the ac BEFORE the nats.i am sure opoints were deducted for that,but i did not want someone mixing the coolant.other people must have liked it,it got gold and i was also told it sold for the most money of all the 69 raiii judges that were there.and oh yea,IT IS A REAL JUDGE!have you checked the prices of r12 ac coolant lately?

[gregsgtos2]

i meant to say that i am sure there were points deducted for the r134 coolant.

[pack69gto]

And one other point how many gtos were cloned into lemans so the money thing and deception are out there,you only read about it one way so to some its all about the money, the world will not change.

[verdorojudge]

hay all i see it like this A DUCK IS A DUCK YEARS AGO I WOULD SAY WOW A JUDGE;;;; NOW ,,,FIRST THOUGHT PROBABLY A CLONE.I GET IS IT REAL AND ITS SO NICE TO SAY YEP.AND DRIVE IT.

[pack69gto]

verdoro its just a discussion buy a fake no need to yell.?

[sharkbite]

I put a Endro front end on my 72 Le Mans,wing, hoodtach, and went with 71 grills (like them better the 72 grills) I'm not going to put any badges on it, and if some ask I'll, say it's a MY Pontiac.

[MCronkGTO]

Exactly what I was talking about Sharkbite. Build it to your tastes but just don't "rebadge" it.

GregsGTOs2, congrats on the Gold concourse award. Yes, I know very well the class structure and point system for GTOAA events and am also a former concourse class winner. I was just surprised that someone who was competing in that class would do that knowing that points would be deducted. Before they had a point system they only used first, second, and third place in class so it was very tough to be first place. The auction price was the highest for a 69 Judge at that event but I thought the car would have brought more considering the recent concourse win and proof of the cars pedigree. The highest price for a GTO at that event was not even a Judge. It was a lightly modified 64 GTO hardtop done to the highest level of workmanship. Just proves my point about auctions and what drives the price of these cars.

For all who post that they will never sell their clone as the real thing I admire your honesty. However my concern is not what you do but what happens later on down the road when the car changes hands again. The next owner might not be as honest.

MarkC

[richmas5]

listen there are two different concerns here,first if you build a clone and then sell you have an obligation to tell that person what it is.second its your car you build it as you see fit,my opinion a car is meant to drive and enjoy,not to put in a museum and look at it,a painting is meant for that.everyones situation is different,to those who can afford a real deal judge god bless them ,to those that cant ,or just want to build a clone god bless them to,again its your car,what I dislike is someone looking down saying HA HA I got it you dont,that reminds me of a littltle spoil brat with a big lollipop saying to the other kid ,you want some ,while laughing at him ,you cant have it.all these 40 plus old cars,every car is numbers matching,you never here numbers correct,let me tell you at least half are either rebodys,aftermarket parts or restamps of engine parts,so people in glass houses should not cast stones,and to the other half of numbers matching cars out there ,more power to you restoring everything down to the last nut and bolt,people who love there pontiacs, my hats off to you

[bobslilgto]

Hello all and GREEN70JUDGE, That's my ad on classical, and I would like to know what is wrong with making a car they way you want. I have 5 Judges and allways wanted a 70 orbit car which I did find and know the Lemans is now for sale. What is wrong with making my Lemans a orbit Judge look alike till I found one? I don't think your old enough to own a Pontiac. Grow up! Thank you all

[bobslilgto]

Hello all and GREEN70JUDGE, That's my ad on classical, and I would like to know what is wrong with making a car they way you want. I have 5 Judges and allways wanted a 70 orbit car which I did find and know the Lemans is now for sale. What is wrong with making my Lemans a orbit Judge look alike till I found one? I don't think your old enough to own a Pontiac. Grow up! Thank you all:

[judgeblues]

I am also a cloner, and I love em! although I am lucky enough to own a real judge, I still love the look of a judge clone or real judge, I have built several clones for customers that want to drive and enjoy their cars instead of looking at them in the garage afraid to drive them because they have to much money invested in them, these cars were meant to be enjoyed and driven they are an inexpensive way to have sweet looking car and if done right the only way to tell is to run the phs, unless you have a lemans cloned into a judge, regardless they still look good if done right, now when they have lemans chrome front bumpers and lemans tailights, a spoiler off a honda with a ford hood tach, then that is where I would draw the line and say I do not like clones when they are done half ass!

[BR57]

So lets get a reality check. Back in 1964 all the Pontiac boys did was steal the name of one of the most desiraeble cars in the world, the Ferrari GTO. Then they slapped it on a cheap poorly made car, the Tempest, stuffed the largest motor they could find into it and presto they created a legend. I say the GTO is the original clone or at least wanna be Ferrari. I have no idea what that makes a Judge but if it was built off a cloned car in the first place then it must be some sub clone species, but for sure it ain't no pedigree, more like a mongrel. Notwithstanding all of that, I'm here because I think they are pretty good. Clone away!

[ram4 judge]

Kind of IRONIC ,bitchin about clones on a site supported by repop parts and the ( Thank GOD ) the people that buy the parts to clone the cars.Alot of the cost to repop parts are paid for or spread over the entire pontiac line( GTO,Lemans, And Tempest), otherwise it wouldn't be cost effective to make them. This is part of what drives the whole business. I have real Judge and do not feel threatened buy a clone next to me. And to the last part about clone cars being sold, If you buy a pontiac without getting PHS and you get burned then you deserve to be seperated from your money. Hey I know , maybe we could get the goverment to protect us and decide how and what cars should be restored.CUBA here I come.

[Greg Reid]

Man, don't you guys think he's had enough? He apologized a page and a half ago. I think he got the message.

[napster]

Greg,

I totally agree with you. I also own a 1970 Judge clone. I accept his apology.


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Nap