[Judge273]

Real world survivor Judges are rare!

True survivors are even harder to really define accurately. They can sell for as much as restored cars as they clean up nice. 40-50K in todays market?

My definition FWIW: Original straight rustfree sheetmetal and nice factory paint with factory engine and drivetrain never out of car or replaced(or paperwork on warranty work) with original compents intact or replaced with like compnents kept in pristine condition. Including interior being all original and not needing restoration.

If this one is a Judge... still no PHS.

Can it be cleaned and polished to make a magazine cover on survivors?

I say this one falls in middle, and would be a nice candidate for a restoration or not.

20k-30k max if someone really finds it to be well documented Judge, and special with matching factory components not yet determined.

[Sidponcho]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Real world survivor Judges are rare!

True survivors are even harder to really define accurately. They can sell for as much as restored cars as they clean up nice. 40-50K in todays market?

My definition FWIW: Original straight rustfree sheetmetal and nice factory paint with factory engine and drivetrain never out of car or replaced(or paperwork on warranty work) with original compents intact or replaced with like compnents kept in pristine condition. Including interior being all original and not needing restoration.

If this one is a Judge... still no PHS.

Can it be cleaned and polished to make a magazine cover on survivors?

I say this one falls in middle, and would be a nice candidate for a restoration or not.

20k-30k max if someone really finds it to be well documented Judge, and special with matching factory components not yet determined.

First let me say that I enjoy these topics and don't intend to start a war. But I have a different definition of a survivor. Rusty lower fenders, faded paint, and rips in the seats would be acceptable...this is normal wear and tear especially in certain parts of the country. And I'd never use the word pristine to describe a survivor, although I'm sure they do exist.

I'd simply say that a survivor has all of its original sheet metal, interior, and drivetrain with only maintenence items replaced over the years. And is in safe, driveable condition with normal wear and tear for its age and mileage.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Sidponcho

First let me say that I enjoy these topics and don't intend to start a war. But I have a different definition of a survivor. Rusty lower fenders, faded paint, and rips in the seats would be acceptable...this is normal wear and tear especially in certain parts of the country. And I'd never use the word pristine to describe a survivor, although I'm sure they do exist.

I'd simply say that a survivor has all of its original sheet metal, interior, and drivetrain with only maintenence items replaced over the years. And is in safe, driveable condition with normal wear and tear for its age and mileage.

I kinda lean that way too....If it's been put up in a garage since it was new...what exactly did it survive? Time?
There are some survivors that need no restoration because they've been meticulously cared for over the years and enjoyed also.... and there are some that were used a little or even a lot harder but they're still survivors...I'm talking cars that have been driven regularly over their lifetimes and are still driveable- even if a little worse for wear.

[69 DAYTONA]

...at the time I purchased mine, I would have gone a little higher than what I paid, but that was what she asked and all she wanted...we made the deal in less than a minute...she was concerned she asked too much because we didn't know at the time if the engine was stuck or not

...I personally think $35K is a little high for the one this thread is about on CL, but it depends on how bad you want it and what you intend to do with it...if you're gonna restore it to flip, it would be very difficult to profit from...if you just want it to do yourself over a period of time for love of the vehicle instead of a quick profit, price really isn't too big of a deal...when I purchased mine, I knew it would never be for sale again, so if I paid a few $$$ to much it didn't really make any difference

pix...first bath since 1972....the car was a daily driver until gas hit .50 cents a gallon, the owner bought a 6-cyl Duster to drive to work and the Judge was retired for a short while, which turned out to be decades

[85_SS]

69 DAYTONA - that's an amazing story/find/deal. Literally a once in a lifetime thing to find a "new" 41+ year old car. Very, very cool. BTW, can you direct me to the article on your car? I've seen that cover before, but haven't read the story (and would like to)

As mentioned, private deals make a huge difference on price. Just curious - did you ask her about it because you knew the car, or did word of mouth get around she was looking to sell?

Being from salt-happy Ontario, I have to agree with sidponcho's definition of a survivor. Anything with original non-rotted body panels, solid frame/floors and to a lesser degree a nice driver interior is a survivor in my book. Many such survivors will need a resto (they make prime resto cars IMO), but they are still survivors in my books - the CL car in this thread falls into that category for me. It's in great shape, but needs work, as you'd expect for a 40+ year old unrestored car. Much of it comes down to whether or not you want to keep the car or flip it as mentioned above - making a profit might be tough, but if this is THE car for you, then it might be worth the money.

I'm no expert, but values are tough to pin down on cars like this. I watched GTO sales (moreso 70's) like a hawk for a year and I tend to agree that not many people would sell that car for under $30K (providing it turns out to be a real Judge or perhaps even if it's documented somehow as "just" a promo car), and chances are someone somewhere will pay it. I paid what I'm sure many here would say is too much for my '70 GTO, but I feel it was a very good deal (not amazing, but very good) as it would cost me MUCH more to restore one myself (I paid about 2/3 of what the PO had into it), which was the original plan until I found out how much people wanted for rough project cars.

Cars like 69 DAYTONA's are almost one in a million and are literally like winning the lottery.

[69 DAYTONA]

..I think this is all of the article

...don't want to cut in on someone elses thread, but in short I had looked for the car for 25 years, and we met by accident in my restaurant one morning...a few days later the deal was done

[85_SS]

Thanks - great read/story. And my apologies to the OP, should have PM'd you on this!

[robz]

Originally Posted by getmygoat

Its an early judge, so it doesn't have the judge logo on the glove box.

If it's early enough (before Feb/69 build) then it should have the GTO dash emblem...

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Howdy Folks ! Long time no Pontiac'ing lately for me.

This craigslist car in question is interesting - by the details given.
Usually those things get shot full of holes though.

Maybe we'll see it on eBay with data plate details and PHS.
No reason for there to have been any pre-release traveling promo cars.
We've kinda found out a lot were built in January, and held back for nationwide Feb 69 release.
3 mild exceptions if remember right, so far. 2 were exports.

This car has "some" pattern options like an early car.
But missing several also (wood wheel, softray all, PDB)
Things can get changed/swapped over years. (T handle shifter, etc...)

The dash/glovebox is like a Feb built Baltimore Judge. No GTO over heater controls - no Judge on glovebox. Early (Jan) would have had GTO over heater - no Judge glovebox. Later (March +) would have Judge on glovebox - no GTO on dash.

I wouldn't completely rule out the carb either - unless the number was checked right.
7028273 would be right up through about April-May on Ram3. Then 7029 afterwards. By initial "looks" - it looks to have promise.

The kicker would be if its super early and completely non-pattern.
I'd bet its Feb built & non-pattern.

Never seen an untouched 1 piece 3spd 69 Judge. Supposedly they had T-handle w/o shift pattern.

Buddy of mine had an untouched 1 piece 70 Judge 3spd. Came with a woodgrain Pontiac knob like a 3spd GTO would had if ordered with walnut. But knobs are pretty easy to swap. This 69, the knob sorta looks like a walnut Pontiac knob ... can't tell for certain.

Just shet to toss around ...

Looks like a great find in good shape, regardless.

[richard sargent]

I have the PHS on the car not a early built Judge shipping date of 02/07/69 options 4 sp., radio-p/b, belts-deluxe, console, pwr strg w/t, glass-s-r-al, saf-t-tr-hd, mirror-remote, tach-hood-mt, rally ga & cl, disc brk pwr, the judge,.

I have one of the first Ram Air IV Judges would like the earliest built III car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I missed some stuff by the pics then.
Glass looked clear and master cylinder looked drum.

Richard, it still could be an early Jan built car - with a swapped dashpad.

Shipping date is non-conclusive on these.
Would need build date from data plate.
1C is about as early as they get.
Think we found ONE that was 1B.

Does the order number start with 000 or 00 ? (from memory - no docs on this comp)
Also had thought wood wheel was part of pattern builds.

So it may be a potential 1 off early car still - the other 1 offs we found all had small deviations from full pattern.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

From memory

BetWinner's 1C build was shipped 2/05

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Wood wheel wasnt part of the package after all.
Sounds like a strait up early pattern car.

Just went back through part of this thread to refresh:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=461212

There were several other really good threads also in past years about these cars.
We learned a LOT about them, in a lot of ways. Been outta the loop a couple years and need some brushing up again.

1C is definitely about as early as you can hope to find.

[69Customs]

Is that not a re-paint with Painted trunk latch and masked off door latch with orange paint around it? Or is that factory correct?

Just asking???

[richard sargent]

Definitely a pattern built Judge 00076, with a zga id code.

But if you go to the Judge Registry there are 5 judges with lower sequenced vin codes this one is 128XXX.

[richard sargent]

Original paint indeed! I checked my IV Judge which has 100 % original paint looks identical to pictures.

[Judge273]

First, Good to see the Baron back to make the Judge section a better place!

Second, Good to see this car get phs'd and such.

Now it needs a home and a bath....

Richard your quest for early builds is cool.

Is next on the bucket list the earliest Non CR Judges?

[weranc55]

Glad to see BVZ back. We can always use some more stories and good laughs.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

From memory

BetWinner's 1C build was shipped 2/05

Hey, Baron--glad you're back.

The ship date you have is right, which is of course the ship date from the zone lot. There is at least one earlier ship date, but it is a ship date from the factory on a dealer ordered car, a 1D car. Mine is 1C.

2/05 is the earliest ship date for zone ordered Judges, which were among the first. I have also seen 2/06 and now 2/07. We have found at least one 1B car that was shipped to Canada. These early Judges are all, or mostly, from Baltimore. And all these early Baltimore Judges have the non-block attachment for the ram air cables on the upper pan (see my thread on this). I'm sure some/many of these have been changed to the block style and these early parts lost, including the different cables. Having them intact is a bonus on this car.

Please check the data plate. The build date will be 1C or 1D--probably 1C.

I would like to ask a ton of questions about the small parts on this car if original--including the paint used under the body. (Mine is reddish brown primer, mostly brown colored.) Mine has the wide gas door and other differences. I have never found another mostly original early Baltimore Judge to help prove some of the "exceptions" on my car.

[OVERULD]

Welcome Back BVZ, good to see your sage wisdom gracing these pages once again!

BJ