[dpoltzer]

This T/A is a 4 speed and I do not have a clutch safety switch installed yet.

[johnta1]

How are you getting power to the purple wire?
(it comes from the clutch safety switch)


Actually the power comes from the ignition switch when the key is held on the Start position.
When key released to Run, the purple wire should go dead.


Can you take the purple wire loose from the starter when it's still spinning to see if it stops?

[johnta1]

Just read your last post.


The 'jumper' wire to the 'S' terminal is what is keeping it spinning.

[Bill Hanlon]

Is there a wire on the 4th (small) terminal on the solenoid? It is usually used to bypass the ballast resistor/resistance wire for hotter spark while starting the engine.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by dpoltzer

Hooked the jumper wire to the "S" stud on the solenoid and connected the other end of the jumper to the "red" lead on the volt meter. Connected the black lead from volt meter to the body of the starter. When ignition key is in the start position (for about 1 full second) volt meter reads 9.0 volts. When key is released to "run" position (And the starter is still spinning) volt meter reads 5.8 volts. Starter never stop spinning until negative battery cable is removed from battery. So it appears that voltage is still getting to the purple-solenoid wire when it should not be receiving any voltage.

Where could that voltage be coming from and where to look?

Earlier in this dilema, you had the purple S wire completely off and the starter continued to spin.

S post, with no wires attached, will show a little volt reading when the starter is hung up spinning.

The solenoid has primary and secondary windings. Primary is powered by the S terminal/purple wire. Secondary has a small wire fed off the lower lug in the solenoid cap. Secondary is like a booster shot and isn't strong enough to hold the plunger in by itself. Or not suppose to be able to.

I'll try to locate a factory solenoid tomorrow and post up some ohm readings so you can compare it to your's.

Mark (stellar) may have the testing info you need. That would save me from having to go dig in the shed.

Did both solenoids come from the same place? Same brand?

Clay

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Is there a wire on the 4th (small) terminal on the solenoid? It is usually used to bypass the ballast resistor/resistance wire for hotter spark while starting the engine.

Just a brass tab on the R terminal. S terminal and lower lug have the wires attached.

Clay

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Just read your last post.


The 'jumper' wire to the 'S' terminal is what is keeping it spinning.

Jumper wire went to his volt meter and then to ground

Clay

[johnta1]

Thanks, Clay.


I think he needs to disconnect the purple wire to see what it does when still spinning.


Otherwise I still think the big spring in the solenoid is not strong enough to push the plunger away from the power supply. The bendix should be helping push the gear back into the starter if the engine starts running.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by Geoff

This would indicated a wiring problem, wires touching, melted together etc.

I would think a miswire or wiring short wouldn't just show up when he released the key. It would be turning over every time he hooked the battery back up. The ignition switch or something inside the starter/solenoid is where I would still be looking.

[Geoff]

Greg,

What is happening: the OP's starter is getting sufficient voltage [ the 5.8 v he has measured ] to keep the sol hold in winding energised after starting. When the bat cable is disconnected, the 5.8 v is gone & the sol drops out & starter disengages. When the bat cable is reconnected, 5.8 v is still there in run position but is insufficient to energise the pull in winding of the sol. So nothing happens [ the problem ] until the key is in the start position, when both sol windings energise..

Confusion about the TWO sol windings: BOTH windings are used to pull in sol plunger; then, the pull in winding is shorted out & the the hold in winding takes over & keeps the sol energised for the starting process. The pull in winding has less resistance, uses more current to generate the reqd magnetic field to pull in the sol plunger. By disconnecting the pull in winding, more battery current is available for the heavy current draw of the starter itself.

To the OP. The 5.8v is causing your problem, it shouldn't be there.

[stellar]

5.8 volts at the S terminal is normal when there is 12 volts supplied to the solenoid starter field terminal and the starter is running when the switch wire (purple) is opened from the circuit via the ign switch. So yes the 5.8 should be there even if the purple wire is disconnected if the starter stays engaged. All normal. I don't see a wiring problem. I still think the problem is in the starter. Try another starter or have an expert take a look at yours. Not the guy you have been using.

[Geoff]

Stellar,

Please explain how/why 5.8v is 'normal' at the S terminal of the starter once the ign sw released to the run position.

Where does the 5.8v come from, since the original 12v supply to the S terminal during cranking is removed when the sw is released to the run position & the two sol windings are connected to ground.

[stellar]

5.8v is normal at the solenoid S post when there is 12v at the solenoid field terminal (starter running). The solenoid pull in winding is still active by the contact of the 2 big posts in the solenoid.. One end of that winding is connected to the S post and the other is grounded through the starter field post in the starter going to ground through the starter brush. When the solenoid contacts are closed they short out the pull in winding to stop its magnetic pull and the hold in winding is in operation at full strength as it is grounded to the solenoid body. If you have a spare starter laying around you can test this 5.8 volt at the S post by grounding the starter and putting 12v to the solenoid field post. The starter will be SPINNING. take a volt reading at the S post. It should be about 6 volt. This is how the pull in winding is neutralized allowing the hold in winding to be full force in normal operating condition. So his starter is running for what ever reason and with no connection to the S post except the volt meter 5.8 sounds normal. At this pointI think looking for a wiring problem is just chasing ghosts. I feel the problem is in the starter. Either try another starter or send me the old one to examine.

[dpoltzer]

Stellar, Thanks for that option and I might take you up on that. Dave

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by Geoff

Stellar,

Please explain how/why 5.8v is 'normal' at the S terminal of the starter once the ign sw released to the run position.

Where does the 5.8v come from, since the original 12v supply to the S terminal during cranking is removed when the sw is released to the run position & the two sol windings are connected to ground.

Hold in intersects pull in at some mid point in the windings. Not at the final ground to the can. What resistance holds back shows up at the S terminal.

Clay

[stellar]

It is possible that the solenoid winding is not balanced, but that is kind of rare. He had 2 different solenoids on so I think that would be a very rare event. Very few shops would test for solenoid balance. I think most won't even know what you are talking about. If the solenoid wind is out of balance it could cause the solenoid to retain magnetism causing the drive to stay engaged. I doubt if that is the problem, but it is possible.

[Geoff]

Quick Silver.

I do not believe the HI & PI windings are connected at some 'mid point' in the windings. My 67 manual clearly shows both ends of the windings; the ground of the PI winding is grounded through the starter motor internals. The diagram in my manual shows the HI winding going to a direct ground, not through the motor. The 'hot' end of each winding is connected together at the Sol terminal on the sol.

[Geoff]

Dave P.

I do not believe you should be getting 5.8 v at the S terminal after the key is released from the crank to the run position. It is probably just enough voltage to keep the HI winding energised & starter spinning.

Other than my earlier suggestions, the only other thing I can think of is the R terminal on the sol. This supplies the resistance wire for the ign coil; it is hot all the time. If the res wire has shorted out, or has been compromised, then enough current may get through to keep the HI winding energised. Also, if an ign coil with an extremely low pri resistance is being used, then enough current may be getting to the HI winding to keep it energised. Extremely unlikely, but this is a veeeeeery strange problem & it is the first time in many years that I have seen it on this forum.

Very easy to check if you have a spare battery. Disconnect & separate the two wires on coil [+] terminal. Connect grd terminal of spare battery to body/engine; connect [+] bat terminal to coil [+]. See if problem is fixed.

[stellar]

He wanted to know where the 5.8 volts came from at the solenoid S post when the starter was running and the key was in run position, so I told him. Under normal conditions when the key is released the starter quits running and there is no voltage to the S post. As per the test he did, the 5.8 volts is what I would expect to see.

I don't see how power at the R terminal could cause the solenoid to stay engaged. Can you explain? Every time the solenoid contacts close, there is full battery power to the R post. If that supplied power to the solenoid coils the starter would stay engaged every time you tried to start it. The R post connects to nothing in the solenoid when the contacts open. Just for the heck of it I'm going to dig out a starter and feed the R terminal directly from the battery and see what happens. I doubt if it will keep the solenoid engaged, but we will see.

[Bill Hanlon]

I already asked, and was answered that the problem will occur with no wire attached to the R post.