[wbnapier]

I started the process of pulling the motor today for an eventual rebuild. This is the most complex automotive project I've ever attempted, so I am hoping I can lean on you for advice and assistance through the process.

It is a '65 GTO, with a 455, #48 cylinder heads, '65 tri-power, Doug's exhaust headers, 4-speed w/ z-bar, and a 3.55 differential.

The engine was previously rebuilt in 1993 and has about 17K miles on it. The previous owner has memory issues, and other than telling me it has Rhodes lifters, I have no idea about the specs.

The problems are a rear main seal leak (about 1 quart/100 miles), engine run on after shut off without an octane booster/mix of race gas, and the engine has relatively low power for the combo, 325rwhp on a chassis dyno.

The plan is a general refresh, with bearings, rings, seals, gaskets, new hardware, assess /adjust the compression ratio, and then re-paint. I will asses the internals once I see what I'm working with.

I've been doing a lot of research, reading, and YouTubing and I feel I can do this.

The first issue is going to be getting the engine out of the car. In my garage, with the headers and z-bar, it may get interesting. I will unbolt the z-bar from the frame and I'm hoping it will slide out.

The second issue is whether to leave the headers on or off the engine during removal.

[67gtospud]

I’m not sure you really need a full bearing/ring refresh based on your description. I think you need to figure out what cam is in it and take care of the tuning. Might not be a bad idea to tear the heads off to see what pistons are in it. Take the pan off to see what rods you have too. I’d have the heads checked out too. Ideally the short block probably won’t have to be touched.

May be a good time to start from scratch with a cam/lifter selection so you know what’s in there. Also some of your running/dieseling issues sound like carb tuning and timing. Maybe see where your timing is set and what your max advance is before pulling everything apart.

Take the bolts out of the headers before engine removal and remove the headers as the engine is being pulled.

[wbnapier]

Thanks for the reply.

Timing is 12 initial, 32 total. The cold start is perfect, warm idle at 875rpm with an AFR of 13.5 to 14. Underload, 12.5 AFR. The throttle response is decent. The hot start has some issues, but that may be related to vapor lock.

You may be right about not having to touch the short block. No matter what I have to replace the RMS and I will look at ARP main fasteners. Once I get it open, I will post photos. I enjoy this, and it is a great learning opportunity. A bit of a mystery as to what's inside.

[Lee]

325rwhp is actually pretty darned good, for a Pontiac with un-ported D-port heads. Your torque at the wheels is probably 100+ better than the HP.

Check the pistons for damage, or just replace them with dished pistons to get the compression ratio down to pump gas levels. If the pistons happen to check out, then consider installing some aluminum heads. A nice set of KRE's will give you a nice bump in rwhp.

NO WAY would I try to pull the engine with the headers! Drop the starter, the oil filter housing, and pull the engine by itself.

You may be tempted to use the BOP Engineering one-piece rear seal. It is a GREAT product, but it is a two-person job to install it, and could be rather frustrating for a beginner (and a fair chance you'll ruin it in the process). Their 2-piece is much simpler to install.

Factory main and head bolts are fine. If you need to have the rod resized, then consider having ARP's installed at that time - but then, why not just get some better rods to begin with, if you are at that point?

[Scott65]

If it doesn't have dished pistons, the 48 heads and resulting compression ratio are likely the reason for needing octane enhancement.

[mgarblik]

In your first post, you indicate this is a big project and you are new to it but ready to jump-in. This would be my advice and may differ from others. You have a nice car from what I can tell in the pics and you don't want to bang-up or damage the engine compartment during this ordeal. So in the interest of safety and not banging up stuff: I would remove the radiator, fan and fan guard. I would put the car on a lift or jack stands as high as practical and remove the drive shaft and the crossmember and the shifter and the transmission. You can pull the engine and trans together, but need more of an angle, it's much more difficult and can be a mess as the trans will be leaking 90wt all over the place, especially if the trans doesn't have a drain. Take the headers off and leave them in the compartment or pull them or drop them if they can be easily removed. With just the engine and bellhousing left, it will come out easily.

As far as what will be needed once it's out and apart, there is honestly no way to know until you get inside. Based on needing octane boost and race gas to make it run and shut off properly, there is a high probability there is piston/ring damage. Also, you will need to determine if when it was rebuilt in 1993, what was actually done? If it still is stock bore and only had a ball hone rebuild in 1993, I would have it bored and honed and do it right this time. You can expect to pick up 40-50 HP just from having round and straight cylinders with a properly plate honed block vs a backyard ball hone ring job. Enjoy the process and do it right to the best of your ability and budget. The number 1 thing concerning the rebuild is Clean, clean, clean. Lots of detergent, lots of hot water and compressed air. Good luck and have fun. As far as the rear main seal leak, I would consider the BOP 2 piece or 1 piece rear seal and possibly their 1 piece oil pan gasket as well.

[Skip Fix]

I agree with pulling the trans first as well as radiator and fan . And to prevent 90wt spilling get an extra yoke to shove in the trans when you pull the driveshaft!! Just unbolt headers and leave them there. I do not have to unbolt the oil filter housing to put a Pontiac motor in my Trans Ams(or the Camaro) When I pulled the 4 speed and SBC oput to put the Pontiac motor in the Camaro I pulled trans,Zbar, and bellhousing and clutch first. I even put the TH400 back in it from underneath separate a 4 speed is even easier to do that.

[wbnapier]

The radiator w/ e-fans is out. So lots of room toward the front now.

My plan is to support the tranny and unbolt the block to bellhousing, shift the engine forward a few inches and lift. When I get there, I will assess other options such as removing the tranny first or lifting it out with the tranny combined.

I will remove the starter, oil filter housing, z-bar, steering shaft, and unbolt the headers today.

Regarding the 1-piece BOP RMS, I have one, and I was planning on using it. I will have a helper and Wade at BOP has emailed me some advice. I will carefully check seal OD, cap ID, and how the cut joint mates together with and without crank. If I feel iffy about it, I will abort and go to a 2-piece RMS.

I will update later today. Happy Easter!

[tom s]

If you have a friend to help and help from Wade I would use the 1 pc over the 2 pc.As said also look into the 1 pc pan gasket.Tom

[Lee]

RE: BOP 1-pc RMS. I forget who, but somebody on this board mentioned how they used their engine hoist to slowly lower their crank into place, using that seal. I've done two of these seals recently, and I used my hoist for the 2nd one - that made it MUCH easier! [thanks for the suggestion, if you read this :-) And feel free to credit yourself]

[mgarblik]

If your going to leave the transmission in the car, just be aware that putting the assembly back together will be tough. Getting it out that way isn't the easiest either. Two things to consider. 1. When you separate the bellhousing from the engine, they will need to be in straight alignment as you need to disengage from the pilot bearing and the splines on the clutch disc. 2. The engine will need to move forward 4-5 inches to clear the clutch from the bellhousing. When putting it all back together, everything needs to be in perfect alignment to have the clutch and pilot bearing go smoothly back in. It can be frustrating, not impossible. This would be my third choice of how to proceed. Possible, not easy.

[tom s]

Lee,we did mine that way,worked well.Tom

[wbnapier]

I will use the cherry picker to help lower the crank on RMS install. There's a good video on this from a forum member. No matter what, I'll be cautious and abort go to plan B if there's a problem.

Also, my current oil pan is trashed, so I will put a jack under it in conjunction with the cherry picker and wheel it forward to help keep things aligned on engine removal.

BTW, this is the preferred method in Rocky Rotella's book... I'll keep an open mind and see about the tranny.

[02Hawk]

Also a good time to resurface the flywheel and put a new clutch in. If it is the original flywheel, change it out for a new one.

[dmac]

Have you done a cranking compression test? It can give you some idea of whether you might need to worry about pistons. If your cranking compression is much over maybe 180, the octane of the fuel tends to be more important. And even if it is, maybe just a cam change or cam timing change can fix it if everything else is good. 17,000 miles is or should be just broken in and not in need of even a valve job. Years ago, I was good with 210-220 lbs of cranking compression, but high octane fuel was easy to find and gas at the pump was still up to 104 octane too.

[dmac]

I am going to say something the complete opposite of everyone else. If you can get the motor out with the headers on, do it.

I have never been able to. I hate putting headers on OR taking them off in the car. There are always a couple bolts that seem to take HOURS to tighten up, or even get started, and my shoulders, elbows, wrist, and finger joints always need just a little more flexibility then they have, and my sockets either won't fit at all, or I can only reach with a flexible extension on the ratchet from an awkward position under the car, or they need an open end wrench with just a little curve that you can only turn 1/16 of a turn at a time. Maybe it's just me. Taking them off is almost as bad.

If nothing else, raise the motor as much as you can before removal, and when re-installing, remember to put them back on with the motor still lifted as high as you can

[wbnapier]

O2Hawk - I'm going to get a new flywheel. Waiting to see about the rotating assembly, then figure out the balance and go from there. The current one has been resurfaced twice to my knowledge. The clutch is a 11" dual friction Centerforce with about 2K on it. It's probably coated in oil, but I'll assess.

dmac - Yes, each cylinder was between 185 and 220 psi. Most were 190-210 range. I was paying the price in octane boosters and race gas, without the commensurate power at 325 rwhp. I had the worst of both worlds... I think...

I'll assess the header thing. I had to replace the gaskets before. I hated it. I needed a friend to come help.

Just got the starter and z-bar out. Need to go do some Easter-related activities now.

I have a Harbor Freight floor tranny jack. Maybe I'll back the tranny out. Unsure still.

[wbnapier]

Any tips on removing the steering shaft from the engine bay?

[wbnapier]

I followed the consensus wisdom of most of you and removed the tranny. A friend helped. I forgot what a PITA that is on my back under the car. I'm exhausted.

Header bolts tomorrow...

[wbnapier]

Good news! The engine is out and on the stand.

Bad news, I already found and issue. When taking off the pressure plate, clutch, and flywheel, the pilot bushing fell out and it has major damage.

I also noticed the flywheel bolts were rubbing the clutch springs, and both have witness marks. Please see the attached photos.