#21  
Old 10-27-2020, 09:52 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli View Post
Definately non ra carb 7029268
I’ve had a few 69 ho FBs and 267 on the sticks
Thanks Telly

Another notable i noticed was the HO Engine option was discounted when the Ram Air Induction option was added with it. (on the 2 RA cars i have invoices on)
$408.66 HO - alone
$369.67 HO - when RA / #611 added
so that brought the actual expense of adding RA down to about $45

{further reference - Base 400 option was $273.83 - pretty good jump in price for just a hair more cam and better manifolds with the HO option for extra $135}


Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ7395 View Post
BVZ Thank you for the information!! Do you think that I should ask PHS to look for an earlier invoice for the bird??
Yes, can't hurt.
I think the closer to the time you initially paid for the documents - the better the chance they actually scour through to look for additional invoices.
Thats just based on observation, not necessarily a fact.
Has been hit and miss all along for the multi-invoice cars.
Some cars have had 3 separate invoices, i think Mike Noun mentioned one with 4 invoices once.


Last edited by Baron Von Zeppelin; 10-27-2020 at 10:09 AM.
  #22  
Old 10-27-2020, 02:29 PM
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The lower price for the 400 HO wasn't related to ordering the ram air option. The price of the 400 HO option had 8 different prices for the 1969 model and none relate to the ram air option! (same situation for the option price of the regular 400 which was always exactly $76.88 less than the 400 HO).

The following will probably make your head spin, it did mine when I was figuring all this out!

Three factors impacted the price of the 400 HO, time of manufacture, transmission choice, and bodystyle.

During the 69 model run there are 5 periods of different pricing and/or content on the Firebirds. Of these 5 periods three of them affected the price of the 400 HO option. On Dec 5th all engine option prices were adjusted slightly, in the case of the 400 and 400HO it was a slight increase. From there the prices on all the three 400 engine options changed again on March 29th to reflect the reduction in standard equipment on the base Firebird. This in effect increased the price of these engine options (base Firebird tire was downgraded so 400 options had to reflect the greater step up cost to the F70 redline for example).

This third time period also created a new price difference between the three 400 options on coupes versus convertibles (because drip moldings were no longer standard on base cars but 400 optioned cars had drip moldings.

The other price factor was transmission. In effect the 400 and 400 HO option prices included the step up from the standard light duty column shift M12 to the HD floor shift 3 speed M13. This tranny was $84.26 when ordered on base engine Firebirds so if you ordered a 4 speed or a M40 with a 400 or 400 HO option the price of the engine option was lowered by exactly the same $84.26 so you wouldn't in effect be double charged for the transmission option.

To make some sense of it here is the price chart for a 400 option with all those variables. Adding $76.88 to any of these numbers will give you the exact cost of a 400 HO option in each case.

.............................................Coupe .................................Convert
.............................................3spd. ......4spd-auto.......3spd.......4spd-auto
up to Dec 4.................358.09....273.83...............3 58.09....273.83
dec 5-mar 29..............377.05....292.79...............377 .05.....292.79
march 30 +..................431.81......347.56............. ...416.01......331.76

This silliness spread to the TA option which also had 8 possible prices.

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  #23  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:36 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Good Gracious !

The 2 RA cars i have invoices for are dated March 19 and March 25
They made it under the wire just in time to avoid that March 29 increase.

An oddball 400 HO invoiced March 21 where the HO is 424.44
Another dated March 31 @ 424.44
RAJ's car was Invoiced June 30 @ 408.64
They went up-down-and all around

  #24  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:40 PM
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Turns out i did have info on the 69 Bird Carbs ... forgot all about it.

I don't know if the T-42 (RA) memo would have applied to the 69 TA Ram3 cars, or at least may not have applied all the way through the end of production on them.
This data probably preceded TA production.

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  #25  
Old 10-27-2020, 04:31 PM
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In my PHS collection of 69 Fbirds I have a few I just can't figure out price wise. I think it relates to cars where the invoice is not the only one. It gets unstructured when cars (company cars etc) are reinvoiced months later. There are also a few like you mention that have option prices that do not match any documented price list. The dates I use to separate the 5 price periods are approximate based on invoices. The revised price lists have an official effective date but the prices on the invoices do not follow exactly. Perhaps the pricing dates were related to completion of production, actual shipping date or some other point we can't identify from here and now.

For what it's worth here are the 5 periods that saw pricing changes in 69 firebirds (i have official price lists for all except the dec 5th revision)...

1...Start of production to Dec 4th 1968

2...December 5th - to December 31st 1968 - changes to engine option pricing only (also affected pricing of some other engines in GP, Fullsize and Tempest-LeMans but not GTO (I do not have an official document on this change but it clearly happened effective the first week of december, confirmed by dozens of invoices). Oddly all the firebird engines increased a few bucks except the 350 2bbl which actually decreased 29 cents, go figure. Also the decor group option price increased because dual horns were added to the package.

3...Jan 1st to March 29th 1969 - base price of all Pontiac's increased by $17 to incorporate the inclusion of headrests which previous to jan 1st was a mandatory option on all cars at $16.85. no other price changes were affected.

The last two periods were Firebird only changes...

4...Mar 30- Sept 17th 1969 - A base price reduction was implemented on all firebirds but this was accomplished by de-contenting the cars... wide oval tires, space saver, scalp (drip) moldings, glove box lamp, courtesy lamp all become extra cost. This impacted the cost of the 3 400 engine options because they had F70 wideoval redlines which now cost more (relative to the new base tire) and the 400 options also included the scalp moldings (on hardtops, hence now a price difference between coupes and hardtops)

5...sept 18th 1969 to end of production - the 69 Firebirds that were produced after the end of normal 1969 Pontiac production saw price increases in their base price and on select options including the TA option but not any of the engine option pricing.

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  #26  
Old 10-27-2020, 04:34 PM
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Interesting about the 400HO only using the "ram air" carbs when the hood inlet option was ordered. I guess this means that the carb tuning difference was based on the cooler air temp coming in rather than any cam change related to the HO engine?

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  #27  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:51 PM
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Probably so, just as you said.

The 70 GTO 455HO , when ordered with additional RA Induction , also stepped the carb up to the RA model carbs.
No better exhaust manifolds or better cam involved with them , just the Induction.

  #28  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:09 PM
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You read my mind! I was just about to ask if a 70 455 switched carbs when it was ordered with hood inlet.

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1969 LeMans (2dr & 4dr Hardtop and a Cvt)
1969 LeMans Safari 2 seat Wagon
1969 GTO (2 Cvt, 2 Hardtops & Judge Hardtop)
1969 Catalina (3 Cvt’s & a 2dr hardtop)
1969 Ventura 2 Seat Wagon
1969 Executive 4dr Sedan
1969 Bonnie Cvt
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1969 Grand Prix SJ (2 of them)
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  #29  
Old 10-27-2020, 08:01 PM
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I talked to PHS and they said they did not find an earlier invoice.

What is the date code range on a typical YW block from a 06A build?

This block is dated 1038 and has the correct VIN. The 62 heads are both dated F099.

The heads seem a little late and the block early. Perhaps the engine blew up and they had to install a new one thus the delay.

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  #30  
Old 10-27-2020, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ7395 View Post
This block is dated 1038 and has the correct VIN. The 62 heads are both dated F099.
That is extremely extreme in both directions on a 6A body from Ohio.
The engine would come pre-assembled (minus carb and accessories) from Michigan.
The YW blocks were nothing fancy to have a spread like that.
Ram2 Ram4 and SD455 blocks had some pre-date extremes like that though.

Total head scratcher on the block with VIN.
SR wouldn't have engine unit number or YW code and rarely had a VIN.
The heads could be replacements

  #31  
Old 10-27-2020, 10:19 PM
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The block was cast January 3rd so... my guess is that the foundry forgot to change the 8 to a 9 on their first day back after the new years. That would put the block date much closer to where it belongs.

Yah- if the heads were swapped out before it left PMDs hands, that might explain the discount and the later dated heads.

I figured the heads and intake would be dated the first two weeks of April.

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  #32  
Old 10-28-2020, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAJ7395 View Post
Yah- if the heads were swapped out before it left PMDs hands, that might explain the discount and the later dated heads.
I'm not thinking along those lines at all.
That wouldn't dictate a discount to the dealer whether it was done at Norwood plant, or at the dealer under warranty work procedure.
If either scenario were true.

These Invoices are the general billing to the dealer.

The Block casting date is August 3, 1968
About right smack at the very start of 1969 year model castings.
I = August
August 1969 , on a blooper , would post-date the car too much.
Neither of those scenarios works very well at all with a June 69 build

Maybe get a magnifying glass and scrutinize the VIN stamp and casting date very very closely. idunno

  #33  
Old 10-28-2020, 06:24 AM
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What is the engine unit number on the block?



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  #34  
Old 10-28-2020, 11:57 AM
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oops
I = September , not August
Still not much help on the gaps though

Quote:
I talked to PHS and they said they did not find an earlier invoice.
Just wanted to point out , that doesn't mean other invoices never existed.
Means they can't locate in the archives, or they were purged at some point.
Some cars don't even have an invoice in the archives at all.
So any invoice at all is a gift from the car gods.

  #35  
Old 10-30-2020, 08:04 PM
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Here's the numbers. Looks like the block and trans were properly gang stamped but the first number wasn't swapped to a 2 so they went back and re-stamped to make it right.
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  #36  
Old 10-30-2020, 09:04 PM
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Never seen one more bizarre/mysterious than that before .

PY member Greg Reid has a 68 GTO with matching VIN YS engine that is sort of a similar scenario. But i don't remember if his is quite that wide of a spread.
And i don't know if his head dates were spread out too.

The EUN is definitely way up in the numbers.
Johnta1 might have some comparative EUN's for May/June/July 69

It's making it look like it was a block that got lost in the shuffle for a long time before it hit the final engine assembly line in Michigan.
Perhaps it was held back as a quality control sample , then later released randomly into the mainstream.

It's almost like those guys didn't realize we would be scrutinizing this stuff 50 years later ! dammit

  #37  
Old 10-30-2020, 10:11 PM
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The date code for the engine is before when they started Firebirds at Norwood I think?
(would have to look my notes up)

Wonder if they may have sent unused engines to Norwood?
The euns around the date code are for March time period. (no Norwood data for then, all Lordstown)

The eun of this engine is for the June time period or so.


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  #38  
Old 10-30-2020, 11:40 PM
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Yep! If it wasn't for the June eun, I'd swear it was restamped and leave it at that. The eun looks perfect and there's no indication that it was tampered with. The YW also looks clean and clear. For both stampings, you can see the machining marks from the huge cutter that faced the front of the block and they are clear and undamaged/rubbed off.

Both the block and trans were stamped incorrectly and then corrected so that indicates to me that it was probably done before it left the PMDs possession as it was a legal requirement. A restamper could have done it but that doesn't explain the perfect EUN on such an early block.

Again, the partial vin was gang stamped, the font is correct, and the eun lines up with the time frame that it was in PMDs hands and so do the heads.

Quite the mystery. Indeed!

Personally - I'd love it if engineering ordered the car with a RAIV, drove it for a couple weeks and determined that the RAIV and PQ trans were too much for a convertible, stamped a 400 HO block they had in hand and a new production PX trans, installed them, discounted it and punted it out the door. Test result - no RAIV in a 69 TA convertible.

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  #39  
Old 10-31-2020, 12:33 AM
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The EUN's were done when the engines were built / assembled.
Quality control numbers mostly - in case of defects found later in certain areas.
Recalls and service bulletins would usually list potentially effected engines by EUN range.

This block sat for a long time before it was ever stamped and assembled.
Lots and lots and lots of others went right on down the line before this one.
Its wacky - but its real.

After they were built and test run on propane, they had to be shipped from Michigan to the build plants in other states. The build plants did the VIN stamps.

The heads are a really really tight squeeze, but could be legit.
Thanks for documenting all of it with the pictures !

  #40  
Old 10-31-2020, 08:40 AM
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Here is a quote from John V (from some other post long ago):
Quote:
Once the Lordstown tooling was moved to Norwood, Firebird production began somewhere around April 14th, IIRC.

The earliest Norwood Time Built code I have recorded is 04C.

The earliest Norwood TA I've recorded shows 06A, but I am fairly certain some TAs would have been produced soon after Norwood began churning out Firebirds in April.

Time Built codes during June, July, & August do not tell much since it appears that only the Month was advanced, the week code will always show A from what I can tell.
John V.

This is my opinion:

I would think Pontiac would have sent engines (blocks?) to Norwood before production began. So they probably had cast dates possibly in this range. The YW and WQ were not used for anything else except TA's or HO/RA Birds at Norwood (not many made)

So, until the Firebird requiring a YW came on the assembly line it could have been June? They probably also didn't use 1st in/1st out inventory?

Anyway, there could have been 500 YW's (or more?) sitting around waiting for their vehicle to come into production? (117 YW TA's at Norwood)


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Last edited by johnta1; 10-31-2020 at 08:47 AM.
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