[spartazoo]

Getting ready to do an extensive re-detail on my 66 GTO. I have a question...My friends 68 GTO was in the concourse at the GTOAA and they dinged him on his engine compartment for the black being too shiney. We have crossed referenced his paint to multiple swatch books and compared it to 60 degree gloss and it is right on. The paint that is currently on my car is Eastwoods "Underhood black" according to the swatch books is about 12-15 degree gloss black. What gives??

[spartazoo]

Getting ready to do an extensive re-detail on my 66 GTO. I have a question...My friends 68 GTO was in the concourse at the GTOAA and they dinged him on his engine compartment for the black being too shiney. We have crossed referenced his paint to multiple swatch books and compared it to 60 degree gloss and it is right on. The paint that is currently on my car is Eastwoods "Underhood black" according to the swatch books is about 12-15 degree gloss black. What gives??

[einstein]

Improperly informed judges...

My buddy gets dinged regularly for too much gloss under the hood of his 69 Z-28, and a lot of critical comments as well from show-goers who "know everything". But he ordered the car new in November 1968 and took delivery in February 69 and has NEVER taken the engine out, NEVER painted anything under the hood except a little orange detailing of the engine, and it still runs the original exhaust system with dull (rather than chromed) exhaust tips. All the self-proclaimed "experts" tell him how "wrong" his underhood paint and tailpipes are! They chide him for a very low ride height as well, but it sits just the same as when new. Take a lot of the fun out of it for him at car shows...

PS I got my first ride in that "muscle car" when it was new, and I was 13.

[A1Judge]

It is for these exact reasons that I do not even attempt to show my car at "professionally" judged shows.. It really takes the fun out of going.

Local, popular vote, relaxed judged shows are a lot more fun to attend!

And my car is done down to the details except for the interior color, which I changed to black as I never liked red interiors...

When I get comments like that from the "expert" spectators I simply ask if I can see their numbers matching Judge! That usually shuts them up!

[paintdaddy]

Gm still makes the black that was used underthe hood and on various suspension parts.If its a show car Ill use the GM black but its hard to get sometimes.

[aj66gto]

Spartazoo,

What color is your GTO.

[Mase]

Can this infoirmation be verified?



All of the General Motors engine compartments are very similar. Each division may have made small changes to suit their individual applications, and each have their own engine colors, but the major components, color of parts, and plating that are used remain essentially the same. Research is the key. When you take your engine out for rebuilding or detailing, photograph the components before they are disassembled. Remove the parts and note whether they are plated, painted, or just natural, When the car is being reassembled the parts should be returned to their original condition.


Frame or sub frame: The frame and sub frame on all Sixties through Seventies GM muselecars were painted semi-gloss black. Some restorers like the frames a little more on the shiny side, while others like a flatter finish. There are a lot of different formulas for this and different paints you can use. Most restorers use acrylic enamel or acrylic urethane finishes with a flattening agent for frame components because of their durability, One formula that you can use is as follows:
3 qt. PPG Delstar rnixing black
i qt. flattening agent
PPG DTR601 quick-dry reducer
Inner fenders, firewall, radiator support: As with the frame, there are many different formulas that can be used to achieve a semi gloss black paint to match the factory finish. Some restorers like to mix their own paint to get the shine they desire, but. many restorers also use a premixed PPG paint for their engine compartment. We have used PPG 9423 lacquer on our cars and it is about as close as you can get to the factory finish, We usually buy it in quart cans because that's enough to do a complete engine compartment. Many of the spray can manufacturers (e.g. Krylon, VHT) make a semi-gloss black that also looks good on, engine compartment components if you don't have professional spray painting equipment. If you have spray equipment here's another custom lacquer formula that you can use:
2 qt. PPG mixing black #386
1 qt. universal flattening agent
1 qt. mixing clear #3 10
PPG DTL16 thinner
Radiator: All GM cars of this era had Harrison radiators that were painted gloss black. We paint them with PPG Deltron gloss black acrylic urethane.
Radiator cap: Radiator caps were not painted, they were plated.
Radiator shroud:
Radiator shrouds should be left natural plastic. Some shrouds on early GM cars were steel and they should be painted semi-gloss to gloss black.
Fan blades: Fans on GM cars differed from brand to brand. Some divisions, like Chevy, painted the fan and blades black, while other GM divisions used natural stainless fan blades with black center hubs. If the fan was a clutch-type, the clutch was natural aluminum with a gold cadmium center. The clutch shaft and spring are natural finish.
Exhaust manifolds: This is another area where the GM divisions differed. According to restoration sources, Chew exhaust manifolds were over-sprayed when the engine was painted. According to Pontiac sources, Pontiac engines were painted first, then the exhaust manifolds was installed. Whatever the case may be, if you are going to drive the car, any over- spray that may be sprayed on the exhaust manifolds will bum off quickly.
Exhaust manifold locks: The exhaust manifold locks were natural finish unless the exhaust manifolds were painted; then they were oversprayed.
Hood hinges, hood latch, hood catch, hood springs: These components look like they are natural finish, but they were actually gray phosphate plated. This proces is available from several plating companies including Delco Moraine Power Brake Booster Restorations by Sieve Gregori.
Upper and lower alternator brackets: Most pulleys and brackets used on GM cars were painted semi-gloss black, but there are some exceptions to the rule. Research your particular car because on some GM brands, individual pulleys could have also been gray phosphates, zinc, or cad plated. Some of the GM divisions also used large aluminum brackets that were natural aluminum in color.
Alternator: Natural aluminurn finish, no paint or plating.
Alternator fan: Zinc plated (silver).
Alternator pulley: Silver cad plated -or gold cad plated (depending upon the application). Most plating shops can handle either application.
Master cylinder: Most of the GM cars came with natural finish master cylinders. For a lasting natural look, they can be painted with cast-iron gray paint, which is available from a variety of sources such as The Eastwood Company, VHT, and Krylon.
Master cylinder lid: The master cylinder lid should be cadmium dichromate (gold rainbow cad This type of plating is available from several sources, including Delco Moraine Power brake Restorations by Steve Gregori or from the ASL company. The master cylinder bail clips are natural metal.
Power brake booster: All GM power brake boosters were cadmium dichromate. The two companies mentioned above can rebuild and re-plate your power-booster.
Brake distribution bracket: Cadmium dichromate.
Power brake hose clips: Black oxide.
Brake lines: Natural steel, no paint or plating.
Brake line clips: We've seen these clips in natural finish, black oxide, and zinc chromate (green) finish.
Fuel lines: Natural steel finish, no paint or plating.
Horns: Gloss black finish.
Windshield wiper motor: Gloss black finish.
Clutch cross shaft: Gray phosphate plate.
Clutch linkage parts: Gloss black finish.
Clutch fork: Natural steel finishes that can be painted with cast-iron spray paint
Clutch return spring: Natural steel or gray phosphate.
Clutch return spring bracket: Natural steel finish.
Battery box hold down clamp: Semi-gloss black.
Water pump pulley, crankshaft pulley: Semi-gloss black, some crank pulleys were cast and left natural finish. Some water pump pulleys on early GM musclecars were zinc plated.
Engine dipstick handle: Natural steel finish.
Steering box: The cast-iron portion of the box is natural finish. The access lid is natural aluminum; the bolts are black oxide.
Stabilizer bar: Depending upon the GM division, these can be natural or semi-gloss black.
Stabilizer bar brackets: Depending upon the GM division and supplier, the brackets can be semi-gloss black or natural.
Tie rods, steering components: natural steel finish. Thes components can be painted with clear or cast- iron colored paint
Control arm cross shafts: Semi-gloss black enamel.
Control arm bolts and large-end washers: Natural steel.
Control arm adjustment shims: Natural steel.
Voltage regulator cover: Gloss-black enamel.
Horn relay: Natural, no paint.
Accelerator rod, accelerator lever: Black oxide.
Engine accessory braided ground strap: Natural, no paint or plating.
Fender bolts, fender bolt washers: Black oxide.
Heater/heater shroud: Semi-gloss to gloss black lacquer. Generally, more shine than the engine compartment.
Front springs: Natural metal.
Shock absorbers: Gloss gray enamel.
Power steering pump: Gloss black enamel.
Power steering brackets: Semi-gloss black enamel. Some brackets may actually look like a cross between semigloss and gloss black.
PCV- hose clips: Black oxide
Ignition wire dividers: Black plastic.


Some of the preceding information was used by permission from Terje K. Larsens Mainpage. Thank you, Terje!
Another place this information appears, and includes some very useful hints on detailing your car's components as well, is the Resto Shop at Team Chevelle.







General parts
Frame/Chassis: black
Front unibody subframe assembly: 30% Gloss black
Firewall: 30% Gloss black
Core support: Gloss black
Inner fenders: 30% Gloss black
Fender-to-inner fender bolts: Neutral steel or aluminum/ Black oxide
Transmission components

Transmission: Neutral steel or aluminum
Driveshaft: Neutral steel or aluminum/ Color coded
Transmission and driveshaft yoke: Neutral steel or aluminum/ Color coded
Differential housing: Gloss black
Clutch linkage: Neutral steel or aluminum
Brake components

Brake drums: Semi-gloss black
Disc brake shields: Neutral steel or aluminum
Calipers: Cast-iron gray
Master cylinder: Cast-iron gray
Axle and suspension components

Axles: Neutral steel or aluminum/Color coded
Third member: Gloss black
Upper control arms: 30% Gloss black
Lower control arms: 30% Gloss black
Inner and outer tie rods: Meganese phosphate/ Color coded
Tie rod adjustment sleeve: Semi-gloss black
Center link: Meganese phosphate/ Color-coded
Idler arm bracket: Meganese phosphate/ Color-coded
Strut rods: Cast- iron gray / Color coded
Coil springs, front: Gloss black/Color coded
Shocks: Gray (some were also 30% Gloss black)
Coil springs, rear: Semi-gloss black/ Color-coded
Trailing arms: Gloss black
Rear end U-bolts: Neutral steel or aluminum /Color coded
Rear leaf springs: Semi-gloss black/Color coded
Front and rear spring shackles: Neutral steel or aluminum
Backing plates: 30% Gloss black
Spindles: Cast iron gray/Color coded
Anti-sway bars: Meganese phosphate/Color coded
Steering components

Pitman arm: Cast iron gray/Color coded
Steering box: Neutral steel or aluminum/Color coded
Exhaust system
Muffler hangers and clamps: Neutral steel or aluminum
Exhaust system and mufflers: Neutral steel or aluminum
Gas tank components

Gas tank: Neutral steel or aluminum
Gas tank straps: 30% Gloss black
Gas and brake lines: Neutral steel or aluminum
Cooling system components

Core support: Gloss black
Radiator: Gloss black
Core support bolts: Neutral steel or aluminum/ Black oxide
Core support-to-fender braces: 30% Gloss black
Fan shield: 30% Gloss black
Brake and steering components

Master cylinder: Cast iron gray
Master cylinder cap: Cold chromate
Power brake booster: Gold chromate
Steering box: Neutral steel or aluminum
Power steering pump: 30% Gloss black
Engine components

Distributor: Neutral steel or aluminum
Coil: 60% Gloss black
Generator: Neutral steel or alummum/Gloss black
Alternator: Neutral steel or aluminum
Voltage regulator: B w/script
Fuel and brake lines: Neutral steel or aluminum
Throttle linkage: Neutral steel or aluminum
Accessories

Wiper motor: 30% Gloss black/Neutral steel or aluminum
Heater motor cover: Gloss black
A/C upper evaporation unit: Gloss black
Horns: Gloss black
Hood components

Hood hinges: Black or Cray oxide
Hood hinge springs: Gray oxide
Hood catches and latches: Neutral steel or aluminum

[Jerry H.]

Einstein is absolutely correct. That being said, let me make a couple of comments.

1. Pontiac used a 60% gloss LACQUER paint in the late 50's and 60's on most of their underhood components. No glossy enamels or urethanes as we have today. Lacquer began to dull the day it was painted. I'll bet your friend's 68 didn't use 60% gloss lacquer for his parts. 60% enamel or urethane is hard to tell from pure gloss. Any lacquer paint is duller when sprayed until it is rubbed or buffed out. I doubted the factory took time to hand rub or buff out inner fenders or other parts.

2. GM reconditioning paint is NOT the same paint that is was just a few years ago. They were forced to reformulate the paint, taking the lead out. This did effect the color. The spray cans didn't even match the gallons at one time! Also, GM recon black was made for the dealers to do just that, to recondtion used cars for resale. It was not meant to be an exact match for the factory paint for inner fenders from the 60's.

[Forrest]

that descripition of parts to be painted or natural ect.. kinda conflicts with the "mcarthy gto resto guide" according to them, all the suspension parts are 60 degrees black, alot of the disc brake dust shields I have seen "original" still have the "gold dichromate plating " where the bolts were ect.. , and the debate continues!!??

[Forrest]

not to mention that even an "original unrestored" car`s paint today will be hard to recongize what "degree" of black it originally was, with all the years of fading ect...

[spartazoo]

Car is the best 66 GTO color going (IMHO) Marina Turquoise.

[aj66gto]

thanks..for the info zoo. My 66 is marina turquoise also. It still has the original paint but, it's faded and needs to be repainted.

[spartazoo]

My car has been painted for 14 years. Still looks good but there are a few spots starting to show. This winter I believe that I am going to have it repainted. Thats is when I am going to do a major "correct" detailing. The Deltron paint formula was lost by the out of business paint supplier years ago. The car was just scanned yesterday to attempt to get a color formula.

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

I'm new to this forum im the persons 68 convetable that is referenced to first of all I would like to say I dont intend to insult any of those beautiful restorations out there with less than 60 degrees gloss black engine compartments actualy most are closer to 30 degrees or less. they look nice but just not correct. unfortunatly most of the judges obviously dont even know what 60degrees gloss even looks like. however they deducted points on mine for being a little to shiney. The part that upsets me the most is I researched all the black components, & marked the pages that described what degree of gloss the black was supposed to be. before ever making a decision to paint. keep in mind that it would of been just as easy to refinish the flater black. so if I,m wrong then the book is wrong, if the book is wrong then GM must be wrong, for instance those of you that have paul Zazarine and chuck roberts second edition AUTHENTEC RESTORATION GUIDE PONTIAC GTO 1964-1972 LOOK to pg. 17 & observe the reflection of the persons finger in the top of the frame, that is what 60 degrees gloss black looks like.
60 degrees gloss black is a referance point that remains constant in laymens terms it represents semi gloss or 50-60 degrees, while eggshell or is between 20-30 degrees and flat is 0-5 degrees the part thats unsettling is that I mixed my paint per PPG paint formula. we have a computer data base state of the art mixing system. I started my auto body career at Stan Lassens pontiac cadillac in 1975 guess what we worked on alot? gto,s ,Trans Ams,Ect. I didnt ever remember the degrees of flatness I see on most restorations out there even on the concourse. so what do you do? Follow the restoration guide that is based on fact and reseach or some poorly informed judge or organization that cant admit that half of their own cars are incorrect. or doesnt have the heart to tell these gold class winners that represent what they think Gm ment by 60 degrees. also I have never seen a cast grey steering gear box or sway bar or steering shaft. like has so proudly displayed as the concourse 69 judge at the pontiac nationals. my cousin has a 69 judge that he has had since it was three years old. and Im here to tell you that car was not near correct. fender wells was around 30 degrees a beautifull car yes, just not right.
Eastwoods under hood black is about 30 degrees gloss which is correct for directly under the hood or the bottom side of it.
to further reinforce what I new was correct this week end I was at a car show that had an all original 74 pontiac and you could clearly see the image of the brake line with the tag still on the line reflected in the surface of the wheel house that was probably ten inches away & thirty years old. & I was around back in the laquer days when you had to add retarder to keep it from blushing on high hummidity days & buffed & polished for shine & dupont or RM factory packs matched the best. How ever 60 degrees is 60 degrees. & if judges are going to be so critical as to deduct points on level of gloss then they should at least get some samples from a jobber and educate them selfs on what it ACUALY LOOKS LIKE.
ALSO one of the judges deducted point off for not having chrome trim around my 1968 park lamps, if I had a 69 I would of taken that hit better, this same gal went over my car with a white glove for near an hour. & also marked me down for a water spot on my rocker panel. the judge that went over my under carage nicked me on to much gloss also. he also got silver with his 68 even though his gas tank was rusy, evenly rusty though, under carage was a wreck & interior pretty worn. I wish I could of judged his car. the guy that judge my engine compartment had no penmanship skills so im not sure how I correct every thing he wrote down since you cant even read his hand writing. The judge doing my interior seemed well informed & professional. now dont get me wrong Im not complaining that I didnt get gold. just right is right & wrong is wrong. are we going to#1 adheare to the reference guide or restoration manuel based on facts & research?
#2 Some click of individuals that want to make up their own ideals.
#3 who ever has the most $dollars tied up in their restoration?
any way here is some samples of what my car looks like with 60 degrees gloss black mixed to the gram by ppg formula. you can apply it to your restoration or go with the more popular not correct 30 degrees gloss. Its your car your choice. at least Im going to attempt to send some pics like I say Im new to this forum format. cowl panel is 60 degrees while heater housing is 30 degrees. I hope this helps & good luck

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

sample 2 cradle section with resto guide

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

example #3rt frame w/suspension

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

example #4

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

example #5 front

[78 GHOST]

I'm pretty much finished painting the frame and undercarriage.. I used the exact proportions as recommended in the MSDS for my paint. I think I'm pretty close to what you have.

Thank God I'm not aiming for judged events.

[GTOLOVEDADDY]

EXAMPLE #6