[SpartanMSU]

Might I remind you:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Estimate? Sure. Realistic? Not on your life! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, MY OPINION DIFFERS FROM YOURS, AND IF YOU CAN'T TAKE ANOTHER's OPINION, THERE'S SOME STRONGER COFFEE YOU MAY WANT TO TRY.

Cafe Cubano, anyone?

[PonchoV8]

Not a chance in hell you guys are gonna be allowed to get within a whisper of those documents. No way. The only way it's gonna happen is with money--and it wouldn't be worth what you personally would have to pay for the privaledge. And even if you did pay that much, you'd be in the same boat PHS is in---no way to recover the costs because the only way two people can keep a secret is if one is dead.

The only way I can think of is for the stats to be a contribution to a book with a percentage of the proceeds going to PHS pocket. It would only work if it were just a chapter devoted to production breakdowns, in a book that detailed other extraneous info that people needed to buy also. If it was a book that only gave breakdowns, one or two people would buy it and then it would be leaked out to the internet--and thus no profit for PHS.

But if he provided it to someone (like a McCarthy or Zazarine type book) along with other info, and PHS got a cut of all sales of said book, he'd get a return on his info off of every book sold even if a guy bought it because it told him how to make an aftermarket battery look original or what color the shock absorber is supposed to be. A small piece off every book would add up. A lot of people would display it at car shows detailing why their car is rare because it only had blah, blah, blah. If it was in a bound book, it makes it more legit too.

[Held for Ransom]

Doug, I'm as curious as the next on what the numbers are. But, the truth is, I would rather have someone else buy the book. I would slip him/her some money to see the book and then copy down all the numbers (or take pictures of pages). In todays techno world, in order for this research to happen, someone is going to have to lose a lot of money (and IT WON'T BE PHS).

[RamAirJohn]

A couple of years ago, there was an article in a local Michigan paper about the Woodward Dream Cruise and a group of Pontiac enthusiasts from Australia who came for the cruise. They got in touch with PMD and were given a tour of the Billing History Files which included looking up the BH for their cars. The article and tour had nothing to do with PHS but PMD directly through a guy named Mike in Public Relations.

Last I heard, the files are still owned by Pontiac and maintained in their building. Any serious research group might want to go directly to PMD/PR for info.

[PonchoV8]

That's a good thought. A work around is always possible. I was under the impression that the files were moved to another site. It's entirely possible that only the address has changed for communication of the requested data. Because, Sterling Hgts is not Pontiac or Detroit. Where is PMD headquartered? Anybody have an old document that had an address of where that info used to come from?

[PonchoV8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Held for Ransom:
Doug, I'm as curious as the next on what the numbers are. But, the truth is, I would rather have someone else buy the book. I would slip him/her some money to see the book and then copy down all the numbers (or take pictures of pages). In todays techno world, in order for this research to happen, someone is going to have to lose a lot of money (and IT WON'T BE PHS). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's for sure. PHS is in place for a profit and anything to evade that is a no go. You'd be the same way if you depended on it for an income.

[Judge Man]

From reading the post,I agree that going through PMD is better than going through PHS.Why dosn't somebody start a fund for the research.All of the members of this website can pitch in $5-10-20 or more dollars,whatever a person can afford.There's enough people interested in getting this information.In return the people can get the color breakdown for helping out to fund the research.

[EBJudge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RamAirJohn:
Some of the reasons given why this cannot happen
(according to The Gate Keeper):

1) Not legally possible. Top Secret files. VINs and BH files are sacred and must not be exposed to the public eyes. If the average person even caught a glimpse of a VIN, many lives would be at risk. This is why all VINs on vehicles are completely hidden to avoid vehicle and identity theft as well as thermalnuclear war

2) The files are extremely complex making such research by mere mortals impossible.

3) The microfiche files are not arranged in any sort of numerical or sequential order according to VIN, model or date. Each search requires hours of painstaking work.

4) Such a project would require hundreds of hours of work at a cost of many thousands of dollars. There are no qualified people or software sophisticated enough to perform this complex task.

5) Laws were established and contracts created to specifically prohibit such research from being done without the express written permission from The General and Major League Baseball.

In a nut shell...
Unless someone is willing to shell out $35 for each VIN search, it ain't gonna happen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) We don't really need to know the VINs, just the breakdowns.

2)Hey! Who said I was a mere mortal?

3)Doesn't matter, if the models aren't too spread out. But, ask me if I believe that...

4)Yeah, so? And, yes, on both the people and the software.
The most time consuming part is that several would need to be checked by hand due to the quality, or lack thereof, of the microfiche.

5)Sigh, ok, ok, I'm beaten...

One thing that could be done is once the database is created, the mining program could be written in such a way as to be able to provide the number of any combination of options so that if left with PHS, for a fee he could tell you that yours is the only "RAIII, 4 speed, PB Radio, 3.23:1, Goldenrod Yellow, Gold interior, bench seat, whatever, whatever, GTO" for 1969 built. Thus at least giving some credibility to some of these "1 of 5" adds on ebay.

That way he could still get fees from this information, we could get the gross breakdown that we want, and he would not have to spend hardly any time to get this detailed info.

Oh, and thanks for the goods words.

[gtoric]

All of this talk about going into the PHS files and retrieving production numbers is pretty much wishful thinking. PHS is an independent company performing a service for PMD. The microfilm records are still GM property. PHS is only legally permitted to perform certain operations and can only release limited information to the public, part of which is the package that we get for our $35.

The files for our cars exist only on microfilm. PHS has a reader/printer that is 30+ years old. Spare parts are getting harder and harder to obtain. If the machine breaks down, the whole operation comes to a grinding halt until replacement parts are located. A minimum team of two persons would have to run a printer continuously for months to get through the film records for all the 100's of thousands of cars built each year. The team would have to go through ALL of the Billing Histories or Dealer Invoices for each car assembled at each plant. Each BH/DI card image would have to be viewed by the operator and all of the information would have to be input into a database by hand. That my friends would be a tremendously time consuming endevor! I don't think that Mr. Mattison or his limited staff has the willingness to subject equipment to extended wear and tear, or the physical time and personal endurance to attempt this task.

IMO, the only way that such a project would even be considered by GM would be to:
1) Establish a team of reputable research volunteers that would be signed to a contract with GM/PMD.
2) A separate, dedicated reader/printer would have to be located and brought on site to handle the project load.
3) You'd have to convince GM/PMD/PHS that this is a worthwhile project. This is probably the highest hurdle, corporate redtape and legaleze being what it is.

Can volunteer researchers (people from the Detroit metro area would be most convenient) be identified? Maybe. Can a compatable microfilm reader/printer be located? Don't know. Are there legal issues concerning the release of this information? Probably. Would GM/PMD/PHS buy into such a project???

A project of this scope would have to be made as painless and cost-free to GM/PMD/PHS as possible.

[EBJudge]

If the records are on microfilm and still GM property, we don't need to bother with PHS's 30+ year old reader/printer. Much more modern equipment exists.

Why would a printer need to be run, if the information can be directly transfered into a file? If so, nothing would need to be input by hand. I don't believe that PMD had no system to placing the BHs on microfilm.

This may still be wishful thinking, but no harm in thinking...

I have a couple of people that I'm going to run this past, to check on the technology and see what I can come up with.

[gtoric]

The microfilm is contained on rolls in cassettes that are directly compatible with the reader/printer that PHS has in house. If a machine can be identified and located that can accept and read these cassettes, that would be great.

I'm not sure I understand how the microfilm image of the BH/DI cards can be transfered directly into a file. These are analog images of the actual cards, photographed 25-45 years ago. There is nothing digital about this process. GM will absolutely NOT allow copies of the Microfilm images to leave the premises of PHS. All we could hope for is to extract certain information from these film records. That means bringing each image up on some sort of reader screen, visually locating the information on the screen, and then recording that information onto a database. I don't see how hand input can be avoided.

[Sport71]

A number of years ago at work we used a scanner loaded with character recognition software to read in hundreds of pages of squadron flight operations data. Each page was converted to an ASCII file, which had to be verified "by eye" since the characters were sometimes interpreted incorrectly. The most common was 0 (zero) being read in as letter O, etc. I'm sure the logic of the latest software is better. Still, with the number of records that PHS has it would be a huge effort, but at least it wouldn't have to entered by hand. I believe the software operated with images extracted from microfilm too ...

[gtoric]

Can the character recognition software be programmed to read only specific portions of the card? I'm certain that GM would not allow verbatim copying of the entire image. And at that point we only have a digital image of the cards. The numbers still have to be crunched and entered into some sort of data base, right?

[Sport71]

The program we used read the contents of an entire sheet into a single file. I'm not sure if it could be instructed to read only a portion of the page. Also, the data doesn't get interpreted as an "image", but rather fields of characters. Once the data files are generated, a "reader/loader" program will have to be created that reads the individual fields of a file and then loads the contents into a database. Once the database is loaded (and checked), numerous combinations of statistics can be extracted in a flash. Like you said, though, the toughest part would probably be getting access to the data in the first place.

[RamAirJohn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sport71:the toughest part would probably be getting access to the data in the first place. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.
The technology is out there. The need is there.
I'm sure there are more than enough research volunteers. The biggest hurdle is access.

Would be nice to actually hear from GM on the issue of research and the legal restrictions
(if any) on BH/DI from 10-40 yrs ago. I personally think some people exaggerate the issue of VINs with regard to legalities. If a VIN was THAT personal or private, why would they require it to be openly displayed on every car? Given that the BH/DI Files are being copied and sold by a for-profit private company, I would say that is a primary reason why you won't see any good research being done anytime soon. Also the same reason why The 'Gate Keeper' encourages everyone to purchase ANOTHER copy of the BH/DI even if the seller has the one he purchased... "Ya never know, he might have altered it." Hmmm, if forgery and alterations are such a big problem, perhaps the $35 copy should contain a hologram or some other feature to control this problem.
Once upon a time, the Dealer/Zone decode was to be included as part of the $35 pkg but then another business venture appeared and now you must purchase a copy of a window sticker to get that info. Unfortunately, these files are more valuable in the sense that people will pay just about anything for a copy rather than the value being realized in the form of research on various production total break-downs. If they were managed as historical files, we would see exactly this sort of research data.

[RAIVJUDGE]

The software and technology is there. You can digitize microfilm records with relative ease. Paper records are digitized using batch scanners. These are not like scanners used at home. They are used at the state, local and federal government to put permanent records in a digital format with a 99% plus character recognition rate. Once the docs are digitized they must be indexed and ocr'd so that you can perform an intelligent search.(this takes time) Once indexed you may be able to search for codes like L-67 and they would all be accessible by a click of the mouse. We do this for land records, dockets, medical records and (x-rays), accounts rec/payable, or any paper of micofilmed document. It is a very time consuming task, presently my company is digitizing gov't records back to 1820, pre-1950 records are paper and after 1950 it is micro film. It can be done. Cannon and ALOS still make film readers that take the cassette. Microfilming is still very popular because it is considered an archival record and a digital record is not and will not be an admissable document for some time, so you must keep the film and access the data over an enterprise wide network. I would not be interested in VIN numbers but numbers like how many black judge hardtops were made etc. As stated above you need to index the docs once scanned so the program knows were to look for things like the VIN, paint codes, engine codes etc. There are a lot of if's here like the condition of the films etc. The only way something like this would ever fly is that the VIN numbers would have to be redacted so that this was not seen by the software user to protect the owners identities of these vehicles even if the user was PHS. Each state has different requirements for how long they must keep DMV record. MI can toss their records in ten years others keep them forever. It would be great to know your car is 1 of XX RA IV Black 4 speed hardtops for sure, but there are a lot of security issues that I am sure GM would have to approve of before letting a project like this move forward. A side benefit is that once done for Pontiac it would be fairly easy to tweak the software and use it for Chevrolet, Buick, Olds and even Cadillac.

[EBJudge]

RAIVJudge is correct, it's called Document Imaging and the current character recognition rate is 99%+. At 5.5 sec/page the 72,287 1969 GTOs would take 13 eight hour days, 6 hours, 26 min, 18.5 sec. not including time for changing cassettes so say 15-16 eight hour days for all 1969 GTOs, another 8-9 days for all 1970 GTOs and another 3 days for all 1971 GTOs, if they are in any kind of logical order on the microfilms.
So, about 26-28 machine days for all 1969-71 GTOs, which I think that we would need in order to get all of the Judges. The 3 sec/page machine would get it done faster.
If the GTOs are scattered amongst the other models it would take longer, of course.
I can just hope that PMD would have microfilmed them in VIN# order, if it's in DI order I would think that PHS would have a very difficult time in finding anything.
The index could be set up in advance so would not require extra time in this regard.
I agree the VIN numbers are not really the point of interest, but how many of what were made. However, the VIN numbers would probably need to be retained on the file during the database construction to guard against duplicates. But the retrieval software does not have to be able to get at it.
There would probably need to be several different, but simmilar programs to access each year/series due to different option availability and/or BH layout.
But yes, it possibly could be tweaked to be used on all GM lines.

[PonchoV8]

The problem is extracting only the GTOs. Aren't these files/fiche just run in consecutive order among the big cars, etc?

[EBJudge]

Correct, it depends on how they were run, in VIN# order or what? You would think (hope) that they are in VIN# order. And, labeled as such.

[gtoric]

Am I wrong, or did the PMD assembly plant build big cars and intermediates along the same line at the same time? If that is so, would all of the VINs be sequential by body (A-body, B-body, etc.) or by overall plant production? My GTO was assembled in K.C., so VINs were mixed in with only the other Le Mans, Tempests and GTOs built in that plant since the other division's A-bodies had their own sequences. It would be more involved to separate GTOs from other models in the Pontiac plant than in other plants.

In any event, a project of this type needs legal research, a team identified, volunteers secured (and cleared by GM?), a project plan formulated (including methods and equipment to be utilized), that plan presented to the correct committee(s) at GM/PMD, contracts or legal documents drawn ($$$), equipment and supplies secured (more $$$?), arrangements made with PHS to access the records so that their operation is not disrupted (2nd and 3rd shift operation?), plus other stuff that I can't even imagine right now (we would be dealing with GM after all).

There must be fourm members out there who have experience with this sort of venture. Perhaps even retired execs who would be willing to volunteer their time and expertize to getting such a project off the ground and flying.

And why stop at figures for The Judge? I'm certain that there are many other GTO owners who would like to know how many Regimental Red GTOs were built in 1967, how many 1964 GTOs were built with a 4-speed, or how many 1966 GTOs were ordered with Red Fender Liners. That's to say nothing of the rest of the big-body Pontiac community. Once a business plan is put together, how much harder or expensive (with the obvious exception of time) would it be to expand the research to the entire Pontiac line? It might take a year of constant ocr activity to record and digitize records from '61 through '74, or whatever. Once that is done, the hobby realizes the benifits.

Frankly, I don't think that GM/PMD will even consider such a proposal. There's nothing in it for them. They'll sell just as many cars next year whether we have this information or not. That's the bottom line for them. To persuade them otherwise would take a strong champion inside GM and an exceptional project plan and presentation.