[#1WideTrak]

I'm strongly considering putting a 4L80E into my '72. I searched for "4L80E" in this section and only saw mention of Sirrotica putting one in his '86 GP.

My original plan was for a 200-4R, but for peace of mind, I think I will go 4L80E. I'm still sizing up what is required to do both and then make the decision. Thanks.

[Sirrotica]

I guess intended usage is what would make my consideration of either of the 2 transmissions. If the car will be abused or raced and have a high horsepower engine in it I'd opt for the 4L80E, if it's gonna be just road driven with a stock engine then the weaker 200 will probably serve you as long as it has some of the better parts in it. Remember this transmission was originally designed to drive a stock car and engine with no abuse. The biggest engine it was behind was a 305 chevy to my knowledge.

The 4L80E was designed from the venerable T400 and GM added an OD because the 700 or the 200 wasn't tough enough to put in a 1 ton truck with a B/B or a turbo diesel in front of it. GM needed an OD transmission that would haul the weight of the 3500 HD truck chassis with payload and even GM knew trying to haul anything with either one of those transmissions would be financial suicide when it came to warranty claims.

The 3500 HD truck can haul itself along with just over 6000# according to chevy, you know damn well that the owners are going to try to haul 10,000 + with it if it's rated at 6000#. That gives the 4L80E a huge safety factor over the 200/700 transmissions.


Is it more expensive to switch to initially? most definitely it is, thing is a transmission is not considered a wear item by most people that periodically needs replaced like brake linings.

200 needs to be built with tougher innards to put behind a high torque engine that it was never originally designed to be behind. Of course either will need a different torque converter. The 200 can hook up to your standard speedometer cable. The TV cable adjustment is critical so you don't toast your new transmission in a few miles of driving. no adapter plate because most 200s have the BOP bolt pattern along with the chevy, dual fit.

4L80E is of course electronically controlled and needs an TCM to operate along with it uses an electronic speedometer so there is no cable hookup. 4 ways to have a functional speedometer

1)retro fit kit that gives the 4L80E a place to hook up the standard speedometer cable, kit retails for around $500.

2) an electronic motor driven add on that can convert the electronic signal to drive a standard cable speedometer, about $300

3) use a later model electronic speedometer head in place of your original cable driven one, would require some work to find a used late speedometer that would look right in an older car, whatever you can buy one for from a wrecking yard.

4) there are now GPS speedometers available that can be bought and of course need no hookups to the car to read your speed, ones I've looked at were approx $250. Of course it's not going to work in a show car needing all original instruments.

Since the 4L80E only came behind the chevy family of engines the bolt pattern is not going to bolt up to a Pontiac, necessitating an block to transmission adapter plate, fairly cheap to buy, usually less than $75.

TCM and wiring harness, the one Jake recommends is about $600 discounted $100 if you have him build your transmission. The TCM is also very adjustable to tailor the transmission manners to your combo, the 200 not so much.

The 4L80E is going to run close to $4000 if you purchase everything at Jake's and have him build your transmission. The 200 is close to $2500.

Transmission tunnel may need a few dents in it with the 4L80E, although I have heard the ribbing on the transmission case that is the offending problem and can be ground down easily necessitating no hammer mods at all.

The cost of only doing the job once and never having to be concerned if the transmission will break the next time you hammer the throttle on your car,

PRICELESS!!!!!!!!

If you consider engine mods later on the 4L80E gives you room to grow without worries, the 200 not so much.

[#1WideTrak]

Thanks for the detailed run down. Power is gonna require it I think. I just drove the GP, and stock it chirped the tires when I wasn't trying. If I nearly double the power, it's gonna take some getting used to!

I have a tech email sent in to Jake. I've had someone else refer me to him as well.

[n2ogpsj462]

700 in my GP for 7-8 yrs now. Behind everything from a 400 with nitrous to my current combo. freshened it up once when I had the motor out and it was spotless.

[Sirrotica]

Evidently Pontiac thought that a T400 was necessary as that's what came in the car from the factory. As with any car company, they get away the cheapest way possible and they only used T 400s in the 400/428/455 GPs. They could have used a T 350, but didn't believe it would make it through the 5 year 50,000 mile warranty.

The 4L80E is a direct decedent of the T 400 and even uses many of the T 400 internal parts. The basic differences are the OD unit added to the rear of the 400 and it is electronically controlled rather than mechanically controlled by a governor and a vacuum modulator to determine shift points.

If you want to be freshening your transmission periodically then the 200/700 is for you. If you want a design that you can depend on without periodically freshening it then the 4L80 is what you want. Don't forget the large initial outlay for all the good hard parts to replace the weak 200/700 stock parts in the beginning also.

I personally own a 5300# 93 K3500 dually with a 6.5 turbo diesel that was a construction company truck before I bought it and it wasn't babied, 237,000 miles pulling, hauling, and plowing and the 4L80E is still doing it's job just fine. The diesel has a torque rating of 440 lb.ft. enough torque to break a weak transmission. The turbo diesel and BB chevy is the reason for GM designing the 4L80E in the first place, they didn't band aid a 200/700 to put in their trucks behind a higher torque engines because they knew it wouldn't make it out of warranty under any kind of hard usage.

It will tow my 27 foot 7000# fifth wheel camper to Norwalk in the next 2 weeks, that's just over 6 tons total weight between truck and trailer. When a stock 200/700 will last that long getting used hard, let me know. Even a beefed up one won't last over 200,000 miles under those conditions.

The whole crux of the matter is why put a transmission that was never designed to handle the torque of a Pontiac, stock or modified in the first place. Transmissions that were designed for V6s and small block 305 and Olds 307s and even broke under 50,000 miles in moderate usage not being abused. Pick your poison, but choose wisely because after the weaker alternative breaks the first time you'll have twice as much money, and time in your bargain getting the car back on the road again.

Remember the 63 SD Tempests with the hybrid clutch 2 speed auto, never designed to handle the power of a 421 SD engine, originally designed for Corvairs and 4 cyl Tempests. Pontiac did their best to beef the Tempest driveline however it would need freshening or replacement after about 10 runs down the 1/4 mile. Racers quickly realized they had to look to a tougher package to continue drag racing the SD Tempests and converted to a standard rear axle with a transmission behind the engine. Torque breaks inferior parts not designed to handle the power, and it did in this case too.

Hammering the throttle of your HPP and not worrying about breaking the transmission, or freshening it like a wear item, such as brake linings.........................Priceless......... ..

[n2ogpsj462]

We rebuild PLENTY of 4L80Es in my shop. Actually just did one last week in an 04 2500hd with 102k. I agree 100%, if you can afford it, that going 4l80 is the route. However a done right 700 will last as well for most weekend warriors cruising their cars around. If budget is of no concern then go for it and while your at it have kaufmann build you a 600cid 2000hp pump gas motor and open a jegs catalog and order every topshelf item you need to finish your car.

[Sirrotica]

On the whole does your shop rebuild more 200/700s or 4L80Es? Given the usage that the recent rebuild in your shop withstood, is it safe to say that the 700 you have in your car would have stood up better than the 4L80E that made it to 102,000 miles?

Funny thing is it costs more to buy a 550 HP rated 200 ($ 2550) from Jakes than a 750 HP 4L80E ($ 2200), he doesn't list a 700 in his pricesheet, maybe there's a reason for that. The base level 2, 4L80E also is rated at 200 more HP than the level 3 200, 750 HP vs 550 HP. The 4L80E weighs about 30-35# more than the 200/700, that added material is what makes the design superior. The same reason a 400 weighs more than a 350, more mass equals more ability to handle more HP and torque reliably.

The electronic controller and speedometer drive are what brings the total expenditure to more than the weaker alternatives. The pricing of these items is becoming more and more reasonable as more vendors start producing these conversions for the 4L80E. Trying to rationalize not doing the stronger alternative first is like the old Fram TV commercial, "You can pay me now, or you can pay me later." Or the saying from Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

From Jake's Performance website, his words sum the whole 200/700 debate up, the 4L60E/65/70 being the electronically controlled, stronger version of the 700:

Have you broken a Level II, V, or MXXVII 4L60E that is supposedly 700 HP capable with 450 HP? Multiple times?

Are you tired of pulling the transmission, wasting money on fluid, flushing the cooler lines, and having the converter cut open to get all the metal out?

Would you like to have a good warranty but not be likely to have to use it?

Have you ever read a build list for a 4L60E/65/70 and wondered why it sounded like everything in the trans was replaced for a performance build?

That is because it's the wrong unit to use in a big power application. We're not here to mislead you. We could build and sell a very well built 4L60E that would compete with anybody's on the market. There is more demand for this unit, so business wise, it makes sense to pursue that market but we don't.
We specialize in 4L80Es because we KNOW it is the only real option for REAL power with reliability.

Other builders are afraid to cut into their sales and tell you this. We're not. We just want to be sure you get the strongest option available at the best price the first time.

The 4L80E is the descendant of the "Ole Reliable" TH400 transmission. It shares many components and design features. At Jake's Performance the 4L80E is our most popular transmission. We have built them for applications ranging from heavy towing vehicles to 1000+ HP street/strip cars.
The 4L80E has proven reliable like it's predecessor.
Most of our development time is spent on the 4L80E. Look for some innovative new products in the near future that should make the 4L80E even stronger.

We specialize in building the 4L80E for retrofit applications. If you have a 500+ HP musclecar, late model LSx powered car, or other combo that demands THE bulletproof trans, we can build it for you.

Anyone that ignores these facts must either feel lucky, or likes pulling their transmission as an alternative to a exercise program. The pricing is quite close as has been shown. Once you have to re-do the weaker alternative you'll have way more money and time invested than choosing the 4L80E in the first place. To add insult to injury and doing the 4L80E conversion after you've spent a bunch of money on the 200/700 retrofit and decided to not go back to the 200/700 after the first failure.

There's never time nor money to do the job right the first time, but there's always time and money to do it over twice. Not the motto I live by. There are plenty of people on this board that have done the job over after choosing the 200/700 initially, there are also those that have been lucky and had them live behind stout motors. I haven't heard of any 4L80E failures after conversions from members on this board, there could be some that haven't been discussed and I'm not aware of.

It's your car, your money and your time laying under the car, just make the choice you can live with.