[Formula jg]

My first Mighty had the metering blocks on opposite sides of the main body, the secondary with PV plug was on the primary side and the primary with a 6.5 PV was installed on the secondary side.I wonder if that would. According to the flow card it was good.

[Tech @ BG]

Formula jg,

We apologize for the problems you have had. Without having the opportunity to look at the carburetors that you had problems with there wouldn’t be anyway to intelligently talk about them. In a situation where a distributor had a multiple problems we’d have UPS pick the part up so there wouldn’t be any cost to the end user. If you’re still having problems have Shaker goes through let us know, and we can take a look at it for you.


Rugratman,

I can assure you that every carburetor leaving our facility is flow tested. If you look at the flow tag, and get the serial number off of it we can look that specific carburetor up for you. I agree that 100% of items shipped should be perfect, however I’ll respectfully disagree on a carte’ blanch swap out due to the nature of the product. You’re dealing with something that must be tuned specifically to the application and usage. Just today I got back 3 carburetors from a distributor that did not perform properly on a customers engine. They decided to send all three back after they couldn’t make another brand of carburetor work on this engine. The problem turned out to be a balancer that had spun giving a false reading on the ignition timing. When the customer thought he had 12 degrees initial timing it was actually less than zero. New balancer and the problem went away. When dealing with a carburetor problem it’s generally going to be either application, tuning, calibration, or something physically wrong that being the scenario we usually need to get the part back to determine what exactly it is.

Since you state that our manufacturing, and quality processes are flawed. I would like to know where they are, and I will gladly look into rectifying these issues. Not sure what you’re referring to with “older” carburetors. Many of the changes we’re talking about have been implemented over the past 6 to 9 months.


Johnsma22,

No offense taken at all. Actually we closed their account on March 10, 2005. This was done for the same reason that certain manufactures refuse to deal with places like Wall mart. It was getting to a point where it was no longer profitable for us to do business with them. That being said they are a great company, and are able to use their size and buying power to dictate many changes within our industry.


George,

Completely understandable, if there is anything we can do to change your mind please let me know.

[Tech @ BG]

Originally Posted by Formula jg

My first Mighty had the metering blocks on opposite sides of the main body, the secondary with PV plug was on the primary side and the primary with a 6.5 PV was installed on the secondary side.I wonder if that would. According to the flow card it was good.

Actually with how the carburetors are flow tested, that would not show up on the flow bench. The bench is going to check idle fuel flow, acceleration, and WOT. Since the PV was still in the carburetor (all biet on the wrong side) if the jetting was correct you wouldn't see this particular problem when testing.

[Tom Vaught]

"Carb Guys" actually do know what they are doing. (:>)
You pay for that knowledge, be it Cliff, John, or me.

(Unfortunately I give away a lot of that knowledge freely as I don't do the carbs as a full time job like Cliff and John.)

The Demons have historically been a poor quality carb but with potential in the right hands IF the tech did not screw it up beyond what the repairs are worth.

Holleys have a known history and while an occasional carb will "escape" with quality issues the quality issue number is far less. Tom Richcreek, had three of them before he gave up on the deal.

Tom V.

[shaker455]

BG Tech Doug,

Thanks for your offer to fix the swedging on FormulaJG's 825....maybe he'll take you up on your offer.

I did not touch the boosters as they're in tight and do not appear to leak as I have tested it on my car.

But the fact remains that all four are not swedged properly and I think someone from Demon should give John some consideration in this matter and call him, also cover the cost or accecpt the return of the two other 825's to the parts dist where John purchased them from.

Also Doug, I own two Demons, a Mighty 825 and a modified Speed 850 and John's is the first Demon I've actually seen in this condition!.... completely unaccecptable!

If the carb was tested on something other than a wet bench like a live engine it would have been clear that there were major calabration and quality issues with all the passages...from metering block to airbleeds!

Jeff

[455Dave]

I want to pass on a bit of information on the Demons I'm seeing used around here. A lot of people have rich idle problems but they order a BG without ever contacting tech support to get a carb tailored to the engine and driveline. The one person I know who actually contacted BG got a Mighty Demon that he bolted on and went to the track. 3500 lb car went 122 through the pipes and 126 uncapped. The plugs were getting a bit fouled (street car) and he played with the idle adjustments till he got it right. It cost him a set of plugs but he swears by that BG now. IIRC he bought his BG about 4 months ago.

I know one person who ordered too much carb that is is always having problems with fouling plugs at idle. He tunes his S/C engine by leaning out the jets till it pops through the carb and then goes up one step. He has no idea how to adjust the idle A/F ratio.

[Tech @ BG]

Jeff,

We'll gladly call him. I've sent you a PM about it. With his carburetor being a little older, I couldn't speak specifically on how it got through the system. The flow testing should catch these problems when do properly.

455Dave,

Thanks for the feedback.

[Skip Fix]

TECH @BG If my flowbench pulls 10"(or 15", or 28) what factor to get at the 1.5?

OK your Speed Demon 850cfm has 1.562 venturi, and 1.75 butterflies. The Race Demon 1000cfm has the exact same specs. No choke tower, and even if it has thinner throttle blades or downleg different boosters they are NOT going to make a 850 a 1000cfm carb. I can see maybe 50-70 cfm. The same goes for the Holley 850 DP and the 1000 HP carbs-same exact specs, has to be different flow pressures. The same size hole will flow the same cfm unless you change the pressure tested at, at least they do on every flow bench I've used.

My Speed Demon idle screws were almost right on out of the box and it performed well. It picked up 0.3 seconds and idled better over a Carb Shop 800 CFM Q jet even with the adapter to make it fit the intake.

[shaker455]

Dave,
Thanks for sharing some of your experances and from 99% of the rich at idle cases I've seen is due to the idle Feed Restriction (IFR) that's too large and I think this is done intentionally by both Holley and Demon to ensure no customer comebacks with holes burnt in the tops of there pistions from being too lean.

One of my first experances with the Mighty 825 was on a friends built 455HO
and his mix screws were just off seat with stock jetting and the IFR was approx .038".....ended up washing down the engine...

when I worked on it I installed .035" IFR's and he purchased a new baseplate with the idle-eze adjustable bypass air system so he could maintain good throttleblade position and it now works great.

Doug,
Got your PM and I sent you one.

[455Dave]

If I did a search on the last thread I remember where Tech @ BG was involved, he said the BG IFRs are large and can lead to rich conditions on low cube low horsepower engines. They seem to work well on big cube, high horsepower engines. They are racing carbs IIRC.

Anyone want to buy a Blake Carburation 850 cheap? I'll even rejet to your specs. Time to step it up.

[Formula jg]

Tech,

I'll take your word on the flow bench not being able to detect the reversed meter blocks but that first 825 Mighty with the reversed meter blocks did not have any of the emulsion holes drilled on either of those meter blocks, all 12 were sealed/closed, would your flow bench miss that to?

I took the time to write very detail letters describing the circumstances and the condition of the carb(s) in question. A copy was enclosed in the Demon box which the carb(s) came in and I mailed a second copy to "Technical Services Department" and also to "Mr. Barry Grant, President". The first letter dated July 25, 2005 and and second August 10, 2005 (I did not write a 3rd letter for the current carb as there was never any attempt on Demon's behalf to address the issues so I put my efforts elsewhere). The carbs were sent back the same way they were delivered to my local parts store which orders directly from Keystone Distributors (I will not get into that problem).

To clarify, the distributor is not the issue here, the problem is with your return polices as described to me by your tech rep's Eric and Adam who wanted me to pay for the shipping (from Canada) of these brand new unused carb(s)because that was 'Demon policy'.

Also, the carb Shaker has fixed is not an "older" carb as you stated, as of this day it has approx. 100 miles on it and I wouldn't call that old.

If you would like another copy of the letters stated above faxed to you please let me know, note that there is a copy of the flow card attached with these letters should you be interested in tracking the employee #.

[Tech @ BG]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

TECH @BG If my flowbench pulls 10"(or 15", or 28) what factor to get at the 1.5?

OK your Speed Demon 850cfm has 1.562 venturi, and 1.75 butterflies. The Race Demon 1000cfm has the exact same specs. No choke tower, and even if it has thinner throttle blades or downleg different boosters they are NOT going to make a 850 a 1000cfm carb. I can see maybe 50-70 cfm. The same goes for the Holley 850 DP and the 1000 HP carbs-same exact specs, has to be different flow pressures. The same size hole will flow the same cfm unless you change the pressure tested at, at least they do on every flow bench I've used.

My Speed Demon idle screws were almost right on out of the box and it performed well. It picked up 0.3 seconds and idled better over a Carb Shop 800 CFM Q jet even with the adapter to make it fit the intake.

Skip,

As for your first question you would need to either set your flow bench to 20.4” of H2O or mathematically convert from whatever depression you’re flowing at to 20.4” to give you 1.5” Hg. With that being said, dry airflow vs. Wet airflow can make a tremendous difference in CFM number.

I cannot speak for how Holley is rating their carburetors, but as I stated earlier the number or CFM rating on our carburetors is not a direct correlation number off of a flow bench it is an average or median off of engine testing based upon recommended application usage. You are correct, similar size holes will have similar flow numbers when measured on a bench or the same pump (engine).

[Tech @ BG]

Originally Posted by shaker455

Dave,
Thanks for sharing some of your experances and from 99% of the rich at idle cases I've seen is due to the idle Feed Restriction (IFR) that's too large and I think this is done intentionally by both Holley and Demon to ensure no customer comebacks with holes burnt in the tops of there pistions from being too lean.

One of my first experances with the Mighty 825 was on a friends built 455HO
and his mix screws were just off seat with stock jetting and the IFR was approx .038".....ended up washing down the engine...

when I worked on it I installed .035" IFR's and he purchased a new baseplate with the idle-eze adjustable bypass air system so he could maintain good throttleblade position and it now works great.

Doug,
Got your PM and I sent you one.

Jeff,

You are correct in that a carburetor calibration has to air towards the rich side for safety. Not just due to damage, but from usability. What we’ve found over the years is that in most cases if a carburetor is too rich, the end user can at least get the engine to run so they can start their final tuning process, however if it is too lean they’re not able to even keep the engine running which in turn leads to more problems trying to adjust and fine tune.

Got your PM. Thanks…

[Tech @ BG]

Originally Posted by Formula jg

Tech,

I'll take your word on the flow bench not being able to detect the reversed meter blocks but that first 825 Mighty with the reversed meter blocks did not have any of the emulsion holes drilled on either of those meter blocks, all 12 were sealed/closed, would your flow bench miss that to?

I took the time to write very detail letters describing the circumstances and the condition of the carb(s) in question. A copy was enclosed in the Demon box which the carb(s) came in and I mailed a second copy to "Technical Services Department" and also to "Mr. Barry Grant, President". The first letter dated July 25, 2005 and and second August 10, 2005 (I did not write a 3rd letter for the current carb as there was never any attempt on Demon's behalf to address the issues so I put my efforts elsewhere). The carbs were sent back the same way they were delivered to my local parts store which orders directly from Keystone Distributors (I will not get into that problem).

To clarify, the distributor is not the issue here, the problem is with your return polices as described to me by your tech rep's Eric and Adam who wanted me to pay for the shipping (from Canada) of these brand new unused carb(s)because that was 'Demon policy'.

Also, the carb Shaker has fixed is not an "older" carb as you stated, as of this day it has approx. 100 miles on it and I wouldn't call that old.

If you would like another copy of the letters stated above faxed to you please let me know, note that there is a copy of the flow card attached with these letters should you be interested in tracking the employee #.

John,

I got your phone number from Jeff, and I was planning on giving you a call today. You are correct; if none of the emulsion bleeds were drilled flow testing should have caught this. We have also instituted other assembly procedures to help eliminate these types of problems.

As far as your letters go, I’m not sure what exactly happened with the ones you mailed to us. We keep file copies of these, and I do not see anything under your name. Unfortunately, not knowing how or when the warehouse sent the carburetors back to us, I wouldn’t expect to see the notes from those boxes. I would be very interested in seeing your letters.

Again, I’ll apologize if there was miscommunication between Eric, Adam, and yourself about the return. You are correct, in that we normally would need to get the carburetor back to us before any type of replacement could be taken care of, however we do offer to pay shipping & handling charges in those cases.

I was not implying that you have an old carburetor, however being that Jeff stated you’ve been working through your problems with this particular carburetor for over a year it predates when we’ve instituted the additional changes to our processes that I’ve mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Formula jg]

Tech,

What is your e-mail address, I can PDF the letters directly to you should you wish?

Thank you

[Tech @ BG]

Originally Posted by Formula jg

Tech,

What is your e-mail address, I can PDF the letters directly to you should you wish?

Thank you

John,

You've got mail.

[Skip Fix]

I can convert probably to 20" have to check the Superflow charts. I threw the 850 on last night, don't think my bench can flow a carb by itself.It could on top heads and intake and see a difference but not enough motors to pull vacuum on just the carb.

[455-4+1]

Formula jg

Yours wouldnt have been tested by employee #77 would it ??

My photocopied card was from him suposidly, all of the items were ticked and card stated "Attachment ofthis card certifies that this product has been flow-tested by the manufacturer"

I think this may have been a carefull choice of wording. The "product" has probably been tested at some stage, just this or possibly any other "production unit" may or may not be tested ??

Mine definitly wasnt !!!!

To my view this was purley misleading advertising to hype a product with serius quality control issues and give the impression of a high end product (which its price reflected) that simply was not.

I expect some tuning changes and customisation of fuel delivery (that is why a carb with adjustable circuits is purchased) but basic machining, cleaning, assembly, function and its ability to NOT FALL APART during use should be expected !!

[Region Warrior]

How are you guys setting the 4 corner screws on your 850 "speed" carbs?
If i set them for the highest vacuum, the plugs read over rich.

Also, has anyone had the engine die while cruising, then hard to start, flooded?
Checked for dirt and float operation etc, found nothing wrong.

[shaker455]

Mike,
I set mine for best vacuum which should fall about one full turn from seated in all four corners and sometime I open it a little past best vac when any driveabilty issues show up during testing.

What's your jetting and combo and how do you know your plugs are over rich?...color?...they should look tan or coffee colored.