[Steve C.]

Already solved..... post 2, 3 & 22




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[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Maximum oil flow on a Pontiac stock-type 60- or 80-psi pump with a stock pickup screen is usually 12-13 gallons per minute (gpm).
Source: Jim Butler
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I believe I got that info at one time from the Melling Engineers, and possible could have passed it on to Jim. This was many years ago when Marty Palbykin was researching trying to increase the pump volume by adding a extra section on the gears and a cast iron spacer below the normal plate location.

I believe that the experiment did not work out at the time.
Melling sent me several pumps to look at the different Gear drive options available.

Tom V.

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by SusieQ

You do realize you guys are all pretty cool right? This is a whole lota sexy talk I must tell you. Great reading.

I've decided I'm going to fabricate a bracket that attaches to the cover bolts and that wraps tightly around the tube. I can make it out of some faily thin sheet metal. I'm thinking at present that I'll Vise-grip my brace around the tube and spot weld it through a hole I'll have drilled in it. It'll be very similiar to the oil pump bracket offered by Jegs for other applications, though eliminating the bolt, in favor of a spot weld, to hold the bracket onto the tube. Then the tube will be prevented from not only slipping out, but changing it's adjustment from the bottom of the pan.

Whatcha guys think!?

Has anyone got an answer for the OP's question? To me it sounds like a workable plan.

[Tom Vaught]

I spoke to her on the phone about it.
We agreed to swap some 60 psi components for her 80 psi parts.
She described her plan for the screen and I saw no issues with her concept.

Been busy with other stuff. Figured if she wanted to post additional info she would have.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

We agreed to swap some 60 psi components for her 80 psi parts. Good deal Tom.

Tom I know you have, I also suspect Mark at Luhn Performance has spent quite a bit of time with the Melling engineers. With his involvement of oil pump design he has shared some very interesting stuff regarding the subject, along with the subject of bearing clearances involving the weight of oil.

The oil pump, interesting topic and and no intention in ruffling feathers here by me. After posting here for 20 years typically I've seen in conversations involving the 80 lb pump the odds are good the topic will turn to excessive parasitic loss. This in both the street section and the race section. And more often than not someone will suggest by reducing oil pressure you can free up a BUNCH of horsepower. Nothing persuades like a number, it was just conversation and maybe someone to cite the data and the source.


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[SusieQ]

All of you guys have been very helpful and informative.

Resolved: The 60psi is more than sufficient for a stock engine, or even for a race engine for that matter. The 80psi gives no additional benefit and may even have a downside with loss of horsepower and possible distributor gear damage on cold start ups. As Tom said, he's going to help me out and we are going to do a spring swap. to make my 80 a 60. A big THANK YOU to Tom! You Rock!!!

Resolved: The press in screen has some disadvantages inherent with the design. It can slip and change position from the distance from the bottom of the oil pan and can even slip out entirely. A weld from tube to body can break and the weld itself can potentially fall into the pan as the two metals are dissimilar and not weld friendly. A bracket of a similar metal welded to the tube and attached to the cover bolts can work but still carries the risk of damaging the tube if the weld is not done properly. A bracket attached to the cover bolts and that wraps around the tube welding the bracket itself prevents any damage to the tube and solves the problem.

UN-resolved: Is a copper oil pump gasket superior to a paper gasket or is it just overkill and unnecessary?

This has been a great discussion guys thank you again!

[Tom Vaught]

I have used a paper gasket under the oil pump for over 50 years and never had a single complaint with it. You torque the pump to the block and it is done.

I am not a fan of copper gaskets as copper is soft and over time any torque you used to attach the pump to the block will be different. Not saying the pump will fall off the engine but the seal may not be perfect (like when first installed).

Just my thoughts on that subject. If the engineers thought they needed a copper gasket under the pump they would have installed a copper gasket under the pump.

Tom V.

[SusieQ]

Thanks Tom makes perfect sense to me. Paper it is.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I have used a paper gasket under the oil pump for over 50 years and never had a single complaint with it. You torque the pump to the block and it is done.

I am not a fan of copper gaskets as copper is soft and over time any torque you used to attach the pump to the block will be different. Not saying the pump will fall off the engine but the seal may not be perfect (like when first installed).

Just my thoughts on that subject. If the engineers thought they needed a copper gasket under the pump they would have installed a copper gasket under the pump.

Tom V.

Interesting- would this be the same with copper head gaskets?

[Navy Horn 16]

If you use the 80 PSI pump, thread in your oil galley plugs. That's one of the bits of advice that Mr. Butler passed along to me when I got the 80psi pump.

[Tom Vaught]

Copper Head Gaskets are not designed for 100,000 mile durability.
They can be great racing gaskets especially if combined with steel
"0-Rings and machined blocks.

So a generic reply would not be fair to either gasket or material.

Tom V. .

[grivera]

JBP advertises the copper gasket for use with their Pro Series Oil Pump, same mounting surface from what I can see.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...Bpump%2Bgasket

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...Bpump%2Bgasket

Nightmare Performance says this in its copper gasket ad:

"Few engine builders give much thought to the oil pump-to-block mating surface, but improper sealing here can cause significant oil system performance issues, from loss of pressure due to blow-by between the pump and block, to restrictions in the oil flow if the gasket obstructs the oil passage due to improper gasket alignment.

Nitemare Performance's new copper oil pump-to-block gasket addresses all these issues, eliminating gasket issues as a potential source of trouble.

Rather than base its new gasket off an old, paper gasket design, Nitemare Performance started from scratch and based its gasket off the position of the oil passage and mounting holes of actual engine blocks and oil pumps. This clean-sheet design allowed for more precise sizing of the gasket's oil passage and mounting holes, which ensures proper alignment and virtually eliminates the chance of the gasket restricting oil flow.

To ensure and optimal seal between the block and pump, Nitemare Performance's oil pump-to-block gasket is cut from 0.025-inch thick annealed copper, which provides for better crush, to best fill any gaps between the two components that might be caused by surface imperfections. In addition, the copper material is better able to cope with the pressures generated by both high-pressure and high-volume oil pumps, which prevents oil from deforming and possibly blowing passed the gasket, which could result in a critical failure caused by a reduction in oil pressure.

The Nitemare Performance copper oil pump-to-block gasket is inexpensive insurance against a potentially expensive oil system failure at a critical mating surface."

http://www.nitemareperformance.com/o...asket_pro.html

[SusieQ]

grivera...I read the same thing on the Nightmare site. That's what got me thinking of the copper gasket. Being that my engine won't be used for racing, and based on Tom's experience, I'm sure the paper gasket will be fine for my application. Maybe if it was a race engine or if I decided to stick with the 80psi pump it would help.

[grivera]

Good decision on your part. I wasn't trying to sway you either way rather providing info on the copper gasket.

[SusieQ]

grivera...it's all good. I'm open to different opinions so I appreciate the input. I'm just letting you know the direction I'm going in. I'm curious to see if there will be any new insights shared regarding the copper gaskets.

[Tom Vaught]

Just a couple of comments, Susie.

1) When you anneal copper you make it softer. It fills in gaps pretty well if the block is rough in the surface between the oil pump and the block. Does a nice job of sealing.

2) Oil pumps are torqued to a given value on the block typically 30 ft/lbs
Pontiac developed that torque spec (assuming the paper gasket) for the oil pump retention bolts. It has worked for many years.

3) What does the company that sells the copper gaskets recommend for a torque spec with their copper gaskets. Just wondering.

4) How many times can you torque that copper gasket?
(If the Pontiac paper gasket is not torn you can put the oil pump right back on the block, torque it to 30 ft lbs and it will seal just fine again for another 50,000 miles.)
That being said the paper gaskets are cheap, the copper gaskets ??? never looked at buying one.

Maybe you can help me out of these questions Susie, because you have looked at their product.

Tom V.

[SusieQ]

Tom...good question regarding the torque setting. The Nitemare site doesn't give those details. Here's the link though if you'd like to take a look for yourself:

http://www.nitemareperformance.com/o...asket_pro.html

At this point it's just an academic question. You've sold me on the paper. But it is an interesting question nevertheless.

As far a reusing gaskets, I have always erred on the side of caution and bought new especially when the gasket in question costs less than $2.

[Tom Vaught]

I am not getting pulled into a war with some vendor who thinks he has a better idea on how to fix a "perceived" Pontiac Oil Pump Design issue.

If you want to use his stuff go for it.

Like I said I have 50 years of data that says that the Pontiac oil pump/gasket design was a good one.

Tom V.

[tom s]

I think the last pump I bought from Butler came with a copper gasket.It was a 60 lb pump and I did not use I.Its still in my gasket drawer.Tom

[grivera]

Do Chevy SB oil pumps use gaskets?