#41  
Old 03-16-2007, 10:39 PM
Chief Wanabee's Avatar
Chief Wanabee Chief Wanabee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 240
Default

Brian there was a 76 LeMans 2 door on eBay about a year to two years ago. Police car, Enforcer package, certified speedo, 400, documentation to prove it was a detective's car, PHS yadda yadda. So they did happen, but a regular production Enforcer 2 door is a long way from what was being talked about.

Brian pretty much summed up this topic with his post at 745 am above. Tiresome, indeed. <yawn>

  #42  
Old 03-16-2007, 10:58 PM
77 Canamman's Avatar
77 Canamman 77 Canamman is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 4,022
Smile

I recall the maroon sheriff's car on E-Bay that was still marked with its period correct Visibar. They did make 2 door Enforcers and even wagons, along with the sedans.

__________________
1976 LeMans B09 Freeway Enforcer, 455/M40 Smokey

1977 Trans Am, 400/M21 Black/Gold Bandit. 44K actual miles

2017 Sierra SLT 1500 Z71 4X4

2019 Canyon SLT Crew 4X4

  #43  
Old 03-16-2007, 11:25 PM
Jim Rotella Jim Rotella is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, Nebr
Posts: 543
Default

toomanybirds,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the cancellation of the functional shaker hood scoop on the 1973 F-bodies was due to the inability to pass the federal drive-by noise standards. Because Pontiac was planning to include functional hood scoops for all shaker equipped Firebirds in 1973, it was figured in the base price of all of Trans Ams and SD Formulas. By the time the '73 models were introduced, these cars were built without functional ram air and given a $27.00 credit on the window sticker for the deletion of this feature.

It's possible that this might have been the same problem with the ram air on the A-body cars, Road Test magazine even remarked that it was very loud on the mule SD Grand Am they tested. I'm sure Pontiac pulled the plug on this option for some reason related to certification or production problems, hopefully someday we'll find out why.

  #44  
Old 03-16-2007, 11:29 PM
johnta1's Avatar
johnta1 johnta1 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: now sunny Florida!
Posts: 21,237
Default

Rocky, wouldn't Tom Nell, Herb Adams and others be the ones to talk to since they were working on the SD program?

__________________
John Wallace - johnta1
Pontiac Power RULES !!!
www.wallaceracing.com

Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova
Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats

KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever!


"Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates
  #45  
Old 03-17-2007, 12:45 AM
toomanybirds toomanybirds is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Salina, Kansas
Posts: 378
Default

Jim,

I can't correct you, because I don't know if you are wrong.

As you stated, the functional shaker scoop was deleted for the TA and the Formula SD-455. We know this is true and we have seen the $27.00 credit on the invoices. What we don't know for sure is why it was deleted.

I know I have heard the drive by noise reason for cancellation many times. I have seen it written in numerous articles and quoted many times. What I haven't seen is any documentation from GM in the form of a memo or a quote from a GM engineer or executive stating the reason for cancellation was the drive by noise standard.

The memo in the post above clearly states the functional ram air was still planned for the SD-455 A-body cars. It is hard to understand that the noise would have killed the non-SD cars but not the SD-455 optioned A-bodies.

Also, the Formula 400 and Formula 455 were sold with a functional ram air hood option. I guess there was no noise concern on those? Or maybe that system was quieter than the shaker?

In 1974, the GTO had as standard equipment, a functional ram air shaker scoop. Did the 350 4 bbl GTO engine make that much less noise?

Again, I don't know the answer. I am just skeptical that it was the noise factor. I also hope that someday we will find out.

  #46  
Old 03-17-2007, 07:19 AM
KAINSEL KAINSEL is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 29
Default

Referring to the earlier mention of engines being stolen out of the cars in the parking lot --
My buddy from grade & high school owned a red 74 T/A Super Duty in 1979-1980. Did a lot of cruising in that car (we were both age 22) and rarely lost a street race. Remember spanking quite a few SS396's and even a sharp 1970 GTO Judge, although only by a fender. Had trouble beating some of the modded Mr. Norm Mopars running around the Chicago area. What great memories...
In December 1980 he wrecked the car on the highway, spinning out into a guardrail. The car was towed to a nearby gas station and totalled by the insurance company. The engine was stolen out of the car on the 3rd night, before he had a chance to salvage it for resale. He still has the hood scoop with SD-455 decal as a souvenir, the thieves left that sitting on the ground.


Last edited by KAINSEL; 03-17-2007 at 08:01 AM.
  #47  
Old 03-17-2007, 11:50 AM
Jim Rotella Jim Rotella is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, Nebr
Posts: 543
Default

Alan,

Although I've seen many written statements in vintage magazine articles from the SD 455 era, I too have not seen a PMD statement concerning the drive by noise levels. I can only speculate that the magazine editors got this information from someone at PMD rather than from their own assumptions.

I've also wondered why the '74 GTO used the only funtional shaker hood scoop in the Pontiac line that year. Again, I'm only guessing, but with the smaller mild-mannered 350 engine, it may have been less of an issue than on the bigger more agressive Trans Am engines. You would surely think that Pontiac would have wanted the functional scoop on it's premier performance engine if it was at all possible.

As for the Formula hood scoops, I'm thinking that because they had longer passages and they weren't as open to the outside air as the shaker hood scoop was, they may have been less noisey. The Formula scoops had some baffling in them to keep water out of the carb and this probably muffled the sound a bit, also. We can only guess until we hear from someone on the inside.

I can't give an answer as to why Pontiac was going to make cold air induction a required option on the SD 455 A-bobies and not be available elsewhere in the line. It's hard to base anything on the information that we have available to us. Who knows if the the planners at PMD were scambling so hard at that time to just get the Super Duty package out the door that a lot of the documentation became a little vague. They were up against a lot of resistance at the time. All we can do is brainstorm to find as many answers as we can to the many questions out there about this great engine.

Jim

  #48  
Old 03-17-2007, 12:51 PM
Stuart's Avatar
Stuart Stuart is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 7,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Baker
2-door cop cars did happen...I don't know if that early. We had some Mustangs and Z28's in the mid-late 80's in MD for the State Troopers...used them strictly as radar/pursuit vehicles to collect revenue from speeding tickets.
Police interceptors were available in two door or four door sedans at least as far back as 1961 in big cars. There was a two door '61 cop car Catalina for sale in the last year or so, and my salesman manual shows the option as well.

  #49  
Old 03-17-2007, 01:30 PM
77 Canamman's Avatar
77 Canamman 77 Canamman is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 4,022
Lightbulb

2 door police cars were more common previous to 1970. After that, they were primarily used as pursuit only cars.

__________________
1976 LeMans B09 Freeway Enforcer, 455/M40 Smokey

1977 Trans Am, 400/M21 Black/Gold Bandit. 44K actual miles

2017 Sierra SLT 1500 Z71 4X4

2019 Canyon SLT Crew 4X4

  #50  
Old 03-17-2007, 06:34 PM
Ben M.'s Avatar
Ben M. Ben M. is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rotella
Who knows if the the planners at PMD were scambling so hard at that time to just get the Super Duty package out the door that a lot of the documentation became a little vague. They were up against a lot of resistance at the time.
This happens all of the time in the engineering world. At my company when we are up against a deadline, sometimes mistakes in drawings or implementation get made "officially" but the guys on the line still know how to put the stuff together right and make it pass the tests to get it out the door. I've found errors in documentation and assembly drawings for products that are 4-5 years old now and were never corrected. I can only imagine that engineering was working on everything and changes were coming around so fast due to recertifying engines, etc that not everything was documented as properly as normal company guidelines would have required. If there's one thing that bean counters hate, it is unexpected changes and additional costs to recertify modules in an assembly due to engineering either cheating a bit on the rules and getting busted or due to a design flaw that wasn't caught early on. They usually drill on the engineers to get it fixed NOW and document it later.

As for the whole subject on hand, if someone has documentation, they can be a hero and produce it. Otherwise it's nothing but some hot air story. We have PHS to document these cars, we don't need to listen to some goober tell us stories about how fast their rare factory prototype that the cops confiscated because it was too fast was. If you've got a VIN, I say you can put up or shut up. If you won't prove it (when someone ELSE is willing to pony up the $45) then you obviously know it isn't true. Otherwise you could get the satisfaction of showing people how rare it really is.

  #51  
Old 03-17-2007, 09:13 PM
fiedlerh's Avatar
fiedlerh fiedlerh is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,257
Default

John Sawruk said he worked on the system in 1972 and that it was cancelled because it did not meet the federal drive-by noise standard. I think he's a pretty good authority.

__________________
http://www.pontiacpower.org/
  #52  
Old 03-18-2007, 09:10 AM
WW3's Avatar
WW3 WW3 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Meadville,PA
Posts: 174
Default

I don't know enough about police cars to say what was what in 1973, my point was this alledged car is a one off, 1973 GTO w/455SD. Not from a fleet order of 30 cars and one of them being this GTO, but rather a single order. To me, this seems as though a small department would have ordered it. And that would really have to be an aggressive police dept., with a large budget. Something that in 1972(when it would have been ordered) was probably unheard of. I don't think there were any homeland security grants to be had for smaller communities like there is today.

If this story is true, then it would have had to be puchased by a large city that could afford a purely pursuit vehicle and seems to me there would have been quite a few more ordered, like the CHP ordering 20 5.0 Mustangs or Z-28's

__________________
former home of the 4-speed Can am
  #53  
Old 03-19-2007, 01:31 AM
LUST01's Avatar
LUST01 LUST01 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 303
Default

This one off 455SD GTO cop car is another pipe dream. I don't care if you were just an average joe, A small city police department or the NYPD, no one could buy a car that was not offered. Pontiac did not offer a 455SD in an a-body 1973. Until someone posts some proof, these are all just someone's pipe dream. One more thing. if some one did order a car like this, why is it a GTO. As stated in some of the above posts, Pontiac offered several versions of the Enforcer package that had all the stuff cops need: cop tires, cop shocks and a 440..... oh yea that was the Dodge Monaco cop car in the Blues Brothers (ha ha). If someone said they had a 2 door 73 Lemans with the Freeway Enforcer package with the non SD 455, that I would beleive (I would still like to see the phs docs though because it sounds like a cool combo.)

Matt


Last edited by LUST01; 03-19-2007 at 01:42 AM.
  #54  
Old 03-21-2007, 10:54 PM
sport coupe sport coupe is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 347
Default Road Test 455SD Ebay.

1972 Road test article for SD fans on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1973-...spagenameZWDVW

  #55  
Old 03-21-2007, 11:07 PM
fiedlerh's Avatar
fiedlerh fiedlerh is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,257
Default

Saw that. kind of pricey though.

__________________
http://www.pontiacpower.org/
  #56  
Old 08-10-2007, 06:13 PM
cdnroundport cdnroundport is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 241
Default One that we know Pontiac sould have built.

I think the attention on this thread revolves around how much We Love Pontiacs.We know that a 73 GTO or Grand Am with 455SD would have been a great car and sould have been built.Just like Pontiac should have build a RAIV headed 455 in 70.Like a favorite restaraunt or store going out of business.

Just bought my first 73 Grand Am,a 47,000 mile 400 auto.It's a one owner car Maroon with Black interior.

  #57  
Old 08-10-2007, 10:30 PM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jodan66
well there is gonna be alot of sadness as soon as i get my car out to the shows is all i got to say for now but i do know of one rarefactory police car that did come with a factory 455sd in it and its a 73 gto with the phs docs and the build sheet so it will have a bunch of people eating there words. and that car was order to be a police car.
5 months have passed and no documentation...go figure.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
  #58  
Old 08-12-2007, 02:02 PM
Alvin's Avatar
Alvin Alvin is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pontiac Land
Posts: 3,332
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart
Police interceptors were available in two door or four door sedans at least as far back as 1961 in big cars. There was a two door '61 cop car Catalina for sale in the last year or so, and my salesman manual shows the option as well.
Interesting thread...always enjoy reading about the SD455 GTO/Grand Am. I had the original Car's Magazine issue - bought it off of the news stand. I bought another copy at car show swap meet to replace it years ago. Too bad that those beasts never made it to us on the street...wish it had been so, would make our GA's worth more and get the respect only fellow A-Body owners here know how great these cars are. Good thing that Wagner’s was involved in the CA project in 1977 or those surely never would have made it to the market and our garages.

Regarding early production 2 door police cars: I know Ford produced a 2 Door Fairlane 500 Police Interceptor in 1959. How? My Dad bought one in the early 60's in Albuquerque NM. It was a factory two-tone GREEN two Door with a T-bird Motor (352?) and Automatic "Overdrive". A fast car for it's time and it was a daily driver for several years. To look at it you never would have known it was a Police Car. After Ford, Studebaker, Cadillac, etc. transitioned to Pontiac (and stayed with) in the late '60's. Surely there were other EARLIER two doors offered, 40's Coupes to chase the moon shiners for example. Just IMO.

  #59  
Old 08-12-2007, 06:54 PM
TropicDave's Avatar
TropicDave TropicDave is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnroundport
I think the attention on this thread revolves around how much We Love Pontiacs.We know that a 73 GTO or Grand Am with 455SD would have been a great car and sould have been built.Just like Pontiac should have build a RAIV headed 455 in 70.Like a favorite restaraunt or store going out of business.

Just bought my first 73 Grand Am,a 47,000 mile 400 auto.It's a one owner car Maroon with Black interior.
Or a Can Am with a 4-speed manual transmission. Just got to drive WW3's today, and what a blast!!

Congrats on saving another GA! Make sure to post some pictures, we like to see the cars.

__________________
David
2005 Montana SV6 (wife's car)
1993 Ranger XLT (parts runner and general hauling - working on upgrading the interior)
1977 Can Am (T/A 6.6, posi, Buckskin interior, tilt/AC/PW, 115K miles) - need sheet metal, care to help?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why did they name this town Port Saint Lucie, when there's no port at all here?
  #60  
Old 08-14-2007, 08:42 PM
myam myam is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Oakfield,Wisconsin
Posts: 81
Default 73 455SD Grand Am

I read through this chain and I agree.It seems without John Delorien to squeeze things through it don't happen. I would love to have a SD engine but that ain gonna happen!

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:31 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017