[Diego]

Is that a demand?

You don't seem to get it - I am not at liberty to post images of what's not mine. I had access, they knew I took pics, and they knew I may post something here or there, but that's as far as I can go.

Visit the "big Pontiac" room for a document that I posted on 1967 2+2s. That item was compiled by Fred Simmonds in 1989 and I received permission to post it, but I also was able to cross-reference some memos and notice a typo Fred made, which I corrected as an addendum.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Diego

Is that a demand?

You don't seem to get it - I am not at liberty to post images of what's not mine. I had access, they knew I took pics, and they knew I may post something here or there, but that's as far as I can go.

Visit the "big Pontiac" room for a document that I posted on 1967 2+2s. That item was compiled by Fred Simmonds in 1989 and I received permission to post it, but I also was able to cross-reference some memos and notice a typo Fred made, which I corrected as an addendum.

Yeah right! You WERE "at liberty to post images" on the Dark Side! Hummm.

But THANK YOU for driving up the traffic posts here at the 73-77 A-Body Tech.

[Diego]

(sigh)

[Don Keefe]

Alvin- I don't understand why you are getting in his face. What he said was 100% true. I have seen the docs that he mentioned and like him, was not authorized to release them. There was one document that he was allowed to post and he did. I've got a ton of stories from inside Pontiac I'm sworn to secrecy on. Just because I chose not to prove them on an internet message board doesn't make them untrue.

[Alvin]

YAWN

[Don Keefe]

Exactly...and that coming from the thread hijacker...couldn't agree more!

[castongu]

Originally Posted by Diego

Well, unfortunately, PHS and the GM Heritage Center are two entities that are not in cooperation. PHS has invoices and who knows what else, while GMHC has documents and who knows what else.

Here's some items I have found:

5,106 Lemans with 455-4 in 1973
2,107 in 1974

4,479 Lemans (D29, D37, F37) with floor-shifted 3-speed in 1973
2,201 in 1974

2,424 Lemans (exc. wagons) had the M20 4-speed in 1973 (subtract GTO numbers and you get numbers for "the rest")
833 in 1974 (I think this number has been published already)

2,499 had T36 NACA hood

6,224 Lemanses (D37, F37) had the GT package in 1973
6,222 had it in 1974

I also have 1974 L75 455 numbers by engine and bodystyle:

D29 - 5
D35 - 54
D37 - 18

F37 - 148

G29 - 10
G37 - 64

H29 - 285
H37 - 1433

L35 - 762
L39 - 91
L45 - 1014
L57 - 315
L69 - 830

N39 - 489
N57 - 618
N69 - 460

All this info came from the GM Heritage Center. The document I am looking at looks like an Excel sheet but was probably done by a typewriter. It is dated August 23, 1974.

Well whatever the case may be, Thank You for posting some numbers that I haven't seen before.

I'm surprised over 5000 non GTO and Grand Am cars were assembled with a 455 engine in 1973. I was guessing the number was lower. You just never hear of anyone owning, or having owned a plain jane 1973 LeMans (2 door), or Sport Coupe factory equipped with the 455 engine .

[Diego]

Those 1973 numbers are for all Lemanses - don't forget, the GTO was an option, so they would be included.

For good measure, here's the Grand Prix numbers for 455-4:

1973: 30,561
1974: 18,249

[castongu]

Some figures I've seen elsewhere show only 25 Coupes, and 519 Sports Coupes were built in 1973 with the GTO option, and with a 455. That's over 4500 '73 A-body's (Station Wagons included?) made in some other configuration if that 5106 number is accurate. Interesting information.

[Diego]

It shows 2.1% of 1973 Lemanses had the 455-4, so does it make sense?

[fiedlerh]

2,499 had T36 NACA hood

What year is that?

2,424 Lemans (exc. wagons) had the M20 4-speed in 1973

I have 2,242. I'll correct mine if yours is correct from GM

[Diego]

Thanks for double-checking the hood - it's for 1974. There's no 1973 entry for it. Would like to make an addendum to my original post to clarify but I cannot.

For the M20 numbers, I was correct with 2,424. That's the kind of mistake I've been afraid of - transposing numbers.

[Alvin]

Verification of Pontiac information posted here evidently is a simple trust issue.
My inquiry has been simply to establish the validity of source. To me, Verification is as simple as posting information. Aka: Due Diligence.


Request verification = hi-jacking!!!??? So Don says Diego’s info is legit, GREAT.

But, let’s start with my original request showing the Hood option as an NACA hood. Where?
Lets shine the light on it for all to see and agree that it IS SO.

Here is an ongoing thread on that subject: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=653766



If I said a good reliable Pontiac source (Diego for example) had a regular production 1968 Pontiac Grand Prix Convertible listed that PHS has no record ever existed, how would that be valid? Because “that guy” (Diego) says it is so? Obviously not true since it isn’t a regular production “one-year only” RPO 1967 GP Convertible.
Consider, erroneous info effect of incorrect information used to purchase that 68 GP Vert or selling it here. What kind of comments and verification demands would be made?

Sorry, just asking for more verification other than: If Don sez: “…that Guy Diego’s info is so”…it’s so! Right Don? Maybe if your endorsement had been presented up front, none of this boring dialog would be needed.

Finally, when will this information (and verification it is true) be made available to ALL of the Pontiac hobbyist here?

[Diego]

Alvin, the mea culpa is a bit late, doncha think?

I've been privy to some neat stuff. I decided to come on here and tell some enthusiasts what I've found. I'm more than aware that some guy on the Internet does not a fact make, so it's up to you to decide how big your salt grains should be.

As far as when the info will be made available to the enthusiast, that is totally up to you - you can call the GM Heritage Center and ask them to copy documents for you for a fee. Otherwise, I think it's going to be a long time till concrete evidence pops up for the taking.

[77 Canamman]

So...

It can be agreed upon that the correct number for 1973 GTO 4-speeds is 1,113 instead of the 926 number?

Any idea of the production number of Grand Am 4 speeds?

[Brian Baker]

Interesting turn in the conversation, and verification issues.

I remember a certain '63 SD Tempest that was "verified" in the same manner, because some people "said so", yet there were at least 2 people that proclaimed the car in question ended up in a NJ junkyard within 2 years of its production.

And then there was a certain "righteous" car that was in reality a clone, but because a certain person of high regard and respect in the Pontiac community portrayed it as the original at time of auction, it sold for nearly $300K.

I'm not saying in every case "because someone said so" isn't enough for verification, but a 40 year old factory document would carry more weight.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Diego

Alvin, the mea culpa is a bit late, doncha think?

I've been privy to some neat stuff. I decided to come on here and tell some enthusiasts what I've found. I'm more than aware that some guy on the Internet does not a fact make, so it's up to you to decide how big your salt grains should be.

As far as when the info will be made available to the enthusiast, that is totally up to you - you can call the GM Heritage Center and ask them to copy documents for you for a fee. Otherwise, I think it's going to be a long time till concrete evidence pops up for the taking.

So now, according to you, “I am at fault” for asking for verification? Interesting spin.

AND “I am at fault” for asking, my original – still unanswered question: …you have “NACA” Hood documentation, please verify?

But, …let’s start with my original request showing the Hood option as an NACA hood. Where? Lets shine the light on it for all to see and agree that it IS SO.

Still no answer from you about that simple, basic, question (above) that pertains to this section of the (board 1973-1977 A-Body).

A basic question, in this section, were you posted: 1973-1975 Lemans – what would you like to know? If you “mistyped it” no harm, no foal. No big deal. But why still no answer? If YOU DO have it as NACA from Pontiac, that would be a first to be published!

Ex: If anyone else misquoted & misnamed any option on a Grand Prix, I’m sure that there would be plenty of members who would point out the error in that section. Obviously, as pointed out here in this thread, misinformation can cost big $$$$.

“I’m not a Pontiac expert, but I play one on TV!”


Interesting - In your own words:

THE COLLECTOR'S MARKET - Have you seen a car on eBay or elsewhere that piques your interest, but you desire to learn more? It’s not unusual to see the same cars in the pipeline time and time again, and the Internet has made the world a smaller place, making it easier to become familiar with certain cars. There are lots of “funny” cars out there with questionable histories, and wouldn’t it be a shame to buy a car whose pedigree wasn’t properly presented to you? My experience with all musclecar marques and their respective subcultures allows me to have the skinny on whether a car is a diamond in the rough or a perfumed pig.

[Diego]

Canamman, could you tell me where your math came from?

If I had the time and fortitude to look for Grand Am numbers, I would have done so. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to me at the time because I was focusing on earlier cars.

Otherwise, I'm going to quote myself (again):

The description says "Air Scoop Hood."

[77 Canamman]

The 1113 number has floated around this board for some time. Some books have quoted the 926 number

[Diego]

So you didn't derive the 1,113 number yourself?

All I have is the total number that I provided. I cannot confirm or deny any published number that's been floating around, as far as I know. This is partly due to the fact that I only took photos of the 1974 Options and Accessories report, which has a comparison from the previous year's output. The 1973 and beyond numbers I gathered were an afterthought because my focus was on earlier years; I thought it would be neat to find out how many GTs were built, and along the way took note of some other performance options.