[Stan Weiss]

This is like so many threads here. The question is not what you would do, but what results does the OP want. The idea is help the OP / person not for him to build it the way you want it.

Stan

[unruhjonny]

The OP seemed to be asking a specific question, this engine as I have understood it, will have the YZ block, #12 heads ect, ect;
all that comes into play here is deck height, pistons used, and camshaft;
And camshaft needs to be picked on intended compression, and use of car.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Can you take an image capture of your values?

I got it figured out - thanks

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

This is like so many threads here. The question is not what you would do, but what results does the OP want. The idea is help the OP / person not for him to build it the way you want it.

Stan

You definitely can't read their minds from here Stan.
So I think about what I would do.
Thought everyone did that?
It's at least worth conversation with the owner of the car.
Not sure why I would have to defend it?
There has to be people like me out there. LOL My advice can't be totally useless, can it?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

You definitely can't read their minds from here Stan.
So I think about what I would do.
Thought everyone did that?
It's at least worth conversation with the owner of the car.
Not sure why I would have to defend it?
There has to be people like me out there. LOL My advice can't be totally useless, can it?

You seem to take it as if I posted this just for you. If I had posted this just for you I would have quoted one of your posts as an example.

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

The OP seemed to be asking a specific question, this engine as I have understood it, will have the YZ block, #12 heads ect, ect;
all that comes into play here is deck height, pistons used, and camshaft;
And camshaft needs to be picked on intended compression, and use of car.

Someone Gets it.

Stan

[TransAm 474]

I appreciate all of your input so far. We are gonna try and talk the guy into letting us do what it takes to do this build correct, he is a good guy, so it may be no problem.

Cliff, the engine does still have the Ram Air Qjet on it I believe. I just went and got the number off of it, it is 7040270. So that is fantastic!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

This is like so many threads here. The question is not what you would do, but what results does the OP want. The idea is help the OP / person not for him to build it the way you want it.

Stan

Depends on how you look at "help" Stan. Think I've told you that before in a similar situation, and you always seem to lean towards the negative side of things rather than looking at this from a brighter perspective.

There is a question with a solution, but not all solutions work out as well as others.

Do you want to just give the advice the person wants to hear, or do you want to steer them in the right direction to do something correctly so this engine isn't revisited at a later date? There is a proper way and a quick fix way. One is more expensive than the other. I'm not the type of person to tell someone how to cut corners, and I sure hope there aren't many here who would do that either.

In my opinion, what makes a forum like this great is the fact that we have quite a few knowledgeable people that know how to do things right, and if you know how to weed through the garbage you'll find an intelligent answer.
I've been in Transam 474's position many times with customers. You get something that is a total cluster and they want you to fix it. Problem is I wouldn't want to put my name on it and send it out the door unless it's done right, so that's what I laid out in my first post. Many times if the customer starts penny pinching and cutting corners, I turn the job away.

So you may not like those suggestions, that's fine. But that's how it's done here, it's the best way to correct what's been done, and what I'll continue to recommend whether someone wants to hear it or not, because I just won't suggest a band aid fix. It's up to the OP what advice he wants to take, and he has that freedom to choose. No one is twisting his arm.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Depends on how you look at "help" Stan. Think I've told you that before in a similar situation, and you always seem to lean towards the negative side of things rather than looking at this from a brighter perspective.

There is a question with a solution, but not all solutions work out as well as others.

Do you want to just give the advice the person wants to hear, or do you want to steer them in the right direction to do something correctly so this engine isn't revisited at a later date? There is a proper way and a quick fix way. One is more expensive than the other. I'm not the type of person to tell someone how to cut corners, and I sure hope there aren't many here who would do that either.

In my opinion, what makes a forum like this great is the fact that we have quite a few knowledgeable people that know how to do things right, and if you know how to weed through the garbage you'll find an intelligent answer.
I've been in Transam 474's position many times with customers. You get something that is a total cluster and they want you to fix it. Problem is I wouldn't want to put my name on it and send it out the door unless it's done right, so that's what I laid out in my first post. Many times if the customer starts penny pinching and cutting corners, I turn the job away.

So you may not like those suggestions, that's fine. But that's how it's done here, it's the best way to correct what's been done, and what I'll continue to recommend whether someone wants to hear it or not, because I just won't suggest a band aid fix. It's up to the OP what advice he wants to take, and he has that freedom to choose. No one is twisting his arm.

Just one example for me of not helping. When the OP has a numbers matching engine and wants to keep it that way I do not look at someone telling him he need to changes head as a solution.

Stan

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Just one example for me of not helping. When the OP has a numbers matching engine and wants to keep it that way I do not look at someone telling him he need to changes head as a solution.

Stan

I completely agree with that Stan. Not only because it's a numbers type engine, but swapping the heads really isn't necessary.

[promptcritical]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Just one example for me of not helping. When the OP has a numbers matching engine and wants to keep it that way I do not look at someone telling him he need to changes head as a solution.

Stan

The guys NOT advocating a head swap (because it is not necessary, and the OP said the owner wants to keep it correct for what it is) are giving advice on how to do that to this motor WITH the heads the owner wants on the car. The owner is receptive to a cam change and would most likely be okay with decking since it leaves the engine looking stock. Seems to me that is exactly what is helpful in this case and would result in exactly what the owner is looking for.

[TAQuest]

The autotech pistons will bring them out of the hole for a better quench.

However, that would raise the compression.

Heads with a little higher cc would put it down into the 9's for pump gas. No worries. The 64's would work great for that. Looking stock just not numbers matching.

Then the Summit 2801 Cam would be a good match for the compression.

[TAQuest]

Just found these:
1970 Pontiac rare 64 cylinder heads, never ported, has dual springs for a comp 250H XE cam. Cam goes with heads. Heads have been magnafluxed for cracks with receipt from IDJ automotive $700.

[TransAm 474]

Thanks guys, but it is a must to retain the Numbers Matching 12 heads, so we are going to talk with the customer and see what he is willing to do to get this built correctly. I'm thinking of doing a set of the 5140 rods, a set of SpeedPro l2262 flat top pistons, and having a little taken off the deck to get the piston to around .005" in the hole, and use the Felpro 1016 .039" head gaskets, that should put it around .044" quench. I'm not exactly sure what compression it would have, but I would think it should have close to 10-1 or maybe a fuzz over? I'll know exactly what it is after the heads are cc'd. We then would use the Crower 60916 camshaft and convert it to an adjustable valvetrain. We will get a carb kit and Jets/Rods from Cliff for the numbers matching 7040270 qjet. This is what our plan is, depending on what the customer will allow us to do with it.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by TransAm 474

Thanks guys, but it is a must to retain the Numbers Matching 12 heads, so we are going to talk with the customer and see what he is willing to do to get this built correctly. I'm thinking of doing a set of the 5140 rods, a set of SpeedPro l2262 flat top pistond, and having a little taken off the deck to get the piston to around .005" in the hole, and use the Felpro 1016 .039" head gaskets. I'm not exactly sure what compression it would have, but I would think it should have close to 10-1 or maybe a fuzz over? I'll know exactly what it is after the heads are cc'd. We then would use the Crower 60916 camshaft and convert it to an adjustable valvetrain. We will get a carb kit and Jets/Rods from Cliff for the numbers matching 7040270 qjet. This is what our plan is, depending on what the customer will allow us to do with it.

Copy that.
Compression is going to be a little high for pump gas.
The experts here will guide you to a big cam to help with that.
The power will move up in RPMs with a big cam.
Most likely have most of the power over 4000 RPM.
That's what to expect.

[TransAm 474]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

Copy that.
Compression is going to be a little high for pump gas.
The experts here will guide you to a big cam to help with that.
The power will move up in RPMs with a big cam.
Most likely have most of the power over 4000 RPM.
That's what to expect.

Thank You, from what I have read so far, I was thinking that the 60916 would work good with 10-1 or a fuzz over with pump gas, especially if I can tighten up the quench to how I want? It seems to be a popular choice in these engines at that compression. I know the bigger 60243 would help with running pump even more, but I think that camshaft would be a fuzz bigger than the customer would like in his car. We run the 60243 in one of our own 455's and really like it.

[unruhjonny]

Over the years, I have had people repeatedly say that me that my 1970 YZ RAIII was too much compresssion for pump gas, but I was able to pull it off.
I am not sure how far down the hole my TRW's were, but when I pulled it apart to freshen (I had the deck milled for good measure), it was already at 0.030 over.
I had it brought to 0.040 over.
I still have stock rods with ARP bolts, when I pulled it apart, I found a 067 cam was in there(!?), and I opted to replace it with a 744 (I had an M22 behind it).

Formulajones is running his car's original 1970 YZ RAIII, with exactly what you hope your customer to allow you to do, and he is running pump gas.

It can be done.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!
(If the customer ok's everything, maybe you can share a couple pictures of his car too!?)

[ponyakr]

"...I was thinking that the 60916 would work good with 10-1 or a fuzz over with pump gas...I know the bigger 60243 would help with running pump even more...We run the 60243 in one of our own 455's and really like it."


Just curious. Is there some reason why you are considering ONLY Crower cams ? And, I've noticed that Cliff has used & recommends Crower cams. I've also noticed that Crower cams are about the highest priced cams out there.

So, are Crower cams superior to other brands, such as Lunati, Melling, Crane, Howards, Summit, etc ? I mean are there some dyno, drag, or street tests that makes some guys prefer Crower HFT cams. to all other brands ?

I've never used a Crower cam. Just wondering if they are really so much better, in some way, that they are worth the price difference, over another brand with similar specs.

[TransAm 474]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Just curious. Is there some reason why you are considering ONLY Crower cams ? And, I've noticed that Cliff has used & recommends Crower cams. I've also noticed that Crower cams are about the highest priced cams out there.

So, are Crower cams superior to other brands, such as Lunati, Melling, Crane, Howards, Summit, etc ? I mean are there some dyno, drag, or street tests that makes some guys prefer Crower HFT cams. to all other brands ?

I've never used a Crower cam. Just wondering if they are really so much better, in some way, that they are worth the price difference, over another brand with similar specs.

I'm sure there are alot of good camshafts that would work great, but Cliff and others on this forum have did a ton of testing to see what works and what doesnt, so I always try to do my research, and try to use a combination of parts that are proven to work good. Thats the reason I'm set on the Crower 60916, it seems to a popular camshaft that works well in the high compression 400 builds running pump gas.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by TransAm 474

Thank You, from what I have read so far, I was thinking that the 60916 would work good with 10-1 or a fuzz over with pump gas, especially if I can tighten up the quench to how I want? It seems to be a popular choice in these engines at that compression. I know the bigger 60243 would help with running pump even more, but I think that camshaft would be a fuzz bigger than the customer would like in his car. We run the 60243 in one of our own 455's and really like it.

I think you will be in the 10.5 range.
For pump gas I would like to be in the 9.5 to 9.75 range.
If the customer wants the 12's then they want the 12's.
If it detonates on pump gas you could tell them why and give them a plan B with the other heads I recced.
They would work fine with everything else you suggested.

[Cliff R]

"I've never used a Crower cam. Just wondering if they are really so much better, in some way, that they are worth the price difference, over another brand with similar specs."

I'll answer your question with a real World example.

Recently we helped a customer with his 400 engine build. Ported #62's, low 10's for compression, iron intake, Q-jet, TH350, one of our custom built converters, 3.73 gears. He wanted to run pump gas, good street manners and run well at the track with DOT's, car is a 1968 Firebird..

I recommended the Crower 60243 cam, Harland Sharp high ratio rockers and Rhoads lifters.

The engine idles nearly smooth, just a slight "attitude" at idle, strong power off idle, drives good on the street, very mild at a glance.

At the track....and this is NOT a typo....it runs high 11's over 114mph! Nothing really fancy going on anyplace, just a good solid 400 pump gas engine build using iron heads and a stock intake/carb/distributor.

He did have the heads professionally ported, and the block zero decked with aftermarket forged rods/pistons.

The Crower cams work, been using them for quite a while. I like them because they have a lot of seat timing for the .050" numbers, wide LSA, ramps aren't overly aggressive, very little spring pressure over stock required, and they make the dyno and track numbers we look for in these engines.....Cliff