[GT182]

Thanks Topless and Ccass for the info, it helps explain a few things I wasn't sure of. I figured the rust could have been coming from inside the headers, if the insides were't coated, and bleeding thru the outside ceramic coating.

[Goin' Topless]

Hey, no problem.

I can assure you a pair of Doug's would not rust through that quickly. Their pipes are thick-walled. If you ever picked one up you'd know.

[Goin' Topless]

In addition to what Ccass said, the vast majority of polished ceramic coatings also have superior chip resistance and (ironically) corrosion protection.

From the pictures crustysarge provided, the headers were not properly polished and the unpolished surface absorbed moisture. A vibratory tumbler, which is what most companies use to polish headers, will not completely polish a pair of headers. The hard-to-reach areas need to be hand polished and wiped clean prior to the tumbler.

Feel free to PM me with any more questions. I'd be happy to answer them. Advice is free.

[crustysarge]

Well I swapped the headers out today, no need to say it is a gazillion degrees and I have a 4 spd car so I had to drop linkage etc. My garage is under construction so I went to the auto hobby shop on base and had to pay $37.50 for use of the lift for the day. Now I have to drop another $40 to mail them to Pertronix.

The new driver's side header looked pretty good but still rubbed on the lower control arm so I had to persuade it with a pipe and pull in the collector. The pass side looks like crap, poorly finished ceramic and I think it will rust soon. I was tempted to not install it but being overseas means I have no option. Once on the car it was about 1/2" + higher than the old one and a good 1" to the outside. I had to dismantle the pipes and twist/bang them to get a fit. What fun, I love working on old exhaust pipes when it hot. All in all I spent about 8 hours doing the swap and quite frankly I don't feel real confident about the whole thing. I also noted the new gaskets were about half the thickness of the ones with he first set, interesting they would change the gasket. No leaks but for sure thinner and more flexible.

I want to say one thing about this thread. PY came through when Pertonix just stopped responding to my emails. I think that is what ticked me off more than anything, just poor customer service and not willing to meet me half way. I can only speculate as to what is going on but it sure seems coincidental that the company changed hands and things happened the way they did.

I will follow up in a few weeks after driving the car in the rain etc. and see what happens to the headers.

One other thing, the box was full of Korean newspaper packing from so cal. Strange.

[COMP]

that is strange

[crustysarge]

Yeah, it was from So Cal as the ads in Korean had Riverside addresses'. At first glance my buddys thought it was Chinese and started a whole "Doug's are made in China thing" and then I looked hard at it at saw it was Korean. I spent a year there in 93-94. Big Korean population in Cali I guess.

[Ccass]

Originally Posted by crustysarge

Well I swapped the headers out today, no need to say it is a gazillion degrees and I have a 4 spd car so I had to drop linkage etc. My garage is under construction so I went to the auto hobby shop on base and had to pay $37.50 for use of the lift for the day. Now I have to drop another $40 to mail them to Pertronix.

The new driver's side header looked pretty good but still rubbed on the lower control arm so I had to persuade it with a pipe and pull in the collector. The pass side looks like crap, poorly finished ceramic and I think it will rust soon. I was tempted to not install it but being overseas means I have no option. Once on the car it was about 1/2" + higher than the old one and a good 1" to the outside. I had to dismantle the pipes and twist/bang them to get a fit. What fun, I love working on old exhaust pipes when it hot. All in all I spent about 8 hours doing the swap and quite frankly I don't feel real confident about the whole thing. I also noted the new gaskets were about half the thickness of the ones with he first set, interesting they would change the gasket. No leaks but for sure thinner and more flexible.

I want to say one thing about this thread. PY came through when Pertonix just stopped responding to my emails. I think that is what ticked me off more than anything, just poor customer service and not willing to meet me half way. I can only speculate as to what is going on but it sure seems coincidental that the company changed hands and things happened the way they did.

I will follow up in a few weeks after driving the car in the rain etc. and see what happens to the headers.

One other thing, the box was full of Korean newspaper packing from so cal. Strange.

The change of position of the RH header is of concern to me. They have jigs that these headers are built with. An inch is a LOT.

The comment about the Korean newspaper was really unnecessary and baseless. That's how rumours start.

[Goin' Topless]

I hope everything works out for ya!

[ClassJ]

Generally, distributors aren't responsible for replacing manufacturer's defective equipment, unless it's maybe an out-of-the-box obvious defect. The fact that PY is stepping in is certainly because they have excellent customer support, at least that's my opinion. They don't have to, hope you guys realize.

Not joining the bandwagon here but I will make a comment on this......the company selling the part ALWAYS has a responsibility to the customer regardless of what one would believe or what companies drill into your head. The MFR actually is the one who has little/no responsibility to the customer in a legal sense unless there is a written warranty directed at the customer. Doug's sold the headers to PY. PY sold the headers to you. You always have to go back through the vendor.

It is nice to see performance years stepping in and taking care of this. That is truly the way it should work IMO. And yes, IMO they gave great cust support.

I consider Army/Navy defense contracting the model that most vendor's should follow. Regardless of the size of the contract, if you deliver a product to the Army that fails in some way, the vendor with the contractual sales agreement the customer (the army) is responsible for making good on the purchase. Most major credit card companies view it this way as well. Do you think if you call Visa they would tell you to go after Dougs? Nope.

It does not matter if my company is simply buying a widget from another company and including it in a kit for the Army with no modifications whatsoever. If it fails and is defective, and we sold it to the Army, we HAVE to make it right for them in a timely matter with no additional handling or shipping costs even if it is obvious it is not our fault and we did nothing wrong.

It is then up to us to go after the mfr to get compensated per our sales agreement with them and make a decision whether we want to keep selling their stuff or go to an alternate source.

At this point, with restoration parts, if something like this happens I call the place I bought it from first and pressure them to fix the problem as they should. If they don't I will try calling the mfr once. After that I just call the credit card company and dispute the charge.

Thankfully I have never had to do this with Performance years, ames, year one, summit etc. All have always handled problems well. But there have been times where a vendor has really said "you are on your own". And that is just wrong especially when they are sitting on the profit from the sale and you are stuck paying shipping and fighting with the mfr, etc.

Just my .02......Nick

[crustysarge]

Not tying to start a rumor, just recounting my day with the headers. You had to be there and take the heat from my Chevy buddies and then they had a field day when they saw the oriental paper packing. I validated it was from California and not foreign produced. So everybody who reads this: The packing was not foreign and I do not supect the headers were made offshore.

I would say the JIG was off the day these were made if the other ones were right. I had to move the pipes a fair amount and luckily I had extended the H-pipe connector the last time I had the system apart (Flowmaster) or I wuold not have had enough pipe to seal the center H joint with a clamp. For sure it was up and out, no doubt.

[lust4speed]

Well, the building where Doug's was located in Riverside is now occupied by a trucking company. I haven't checked lately, but their offices were moved to San Dimas, Ca after the sale, which is about 35 miles Northeast of Riverside. There is no manufacturing done at their new location.

I miss being able to drop in and talk to Doug - which was easy because he was there all the time. I have four cars equipped with his headers from back when he did own the company.

Back then, all headers were ceramic coated, but you paid extra for having them polished. I have one polished set and three satin sets. I live in a very dry climate, but I can still see a little rust between the pipes on all four sets. The only complaint I have with the old sets is the ceramic coating only went inside the collectors about 6" and in the tubes at the flange about 2" when taken from the box. It definitely looks like they were hung up and sprayed and not dipped. I figure that they will rust out in about 100 or so years - which won't be my problem. Anyway, there were small problems even when Doug owned the company. I am still sold on Doug's Headers, and hopefully they'll get the coating issue resolved.

My previous set of headers were Hooker Super Comps and their space age coating was laying on the bottom of the shipping box when I unpacked them, and the bare metal already had rust spots. They've probably fixed that problem a long time ago, but it was enough for me to swap brands.

[crustysarge]

Old post revived. I finally got into my new house and have a new shop. Started working on the car this week and the headers are rusted to no end. I am so ticked, I have driven the car less than a 1,000 miles in a year. I'll post some pics later. I will never buy a set of Dougs again.

[Scott M]

Originally Posted by crustysarge

I will never buy a set of Dougs again.

Everybody I've spoken to seems to be happy with their purchases from Mad Dog Headers.

[judgethis]

I like how nice my headers fit and how easy thet were to install but the finish is horrible. I have less then a hundred miles on them and look like they been there since the car was built. I hate it when someone looks in the engine compartment. Im tempted to take them out and somehow repaint them.

[crustysarge]

I believe I got caught at the time of turn over to Pertronix and QC was not there. I worked all day on the car today and the new Pypes system just won't mate to the right header, the jig had to be off. I have bent it as much as I can with a pipe but looks like I'll have to do some cut and weld the pipes to get it in. I am tempted to throw the Dougs in the garbage and suck up the loss and get some other brand, man I am ticked. the finish is crap, rust everywhere. On one of my earlier posts I commented about the new thinner gaskets, well guess what? Yep, driver side blew out in two spots.

I don't care what anybody or PY says, I am convinced Pertonix made the buy and immediately went into cost savings mode and I got the result. Hell, the oil filter won't even fit and I had to go to another style. I also had to grind down the driver's side control arm mount as the header rubs there and now the collector has a big nastier rust spot. Maybe it will rub through and give me more reason to melt them down in a furnace.

[71firebird400]

That's sad to hear. I was gonna swap out my Hedman's for Doug's, but now it looks like I'll have to try out the Mad Dog's.

[judgethis]

Maybe they sent you the wrong header? Or It could have been made on a Friday before a three day holiday or on a Monday after a long party weekend. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

[matrix]

They should at a minimum pay the shipping both ways. You should not have to pay shipping to correct their error.

[crustysarge]

This is the replacement set from last year with about 400 miles on them. You can see the big spot where they rub on the frame. I took them off the car I was so embarrassed to sho the motor.

I would like to know if anybody who bought headers since the Pertronix buyout had issues.

[ARAMP1]

Damn man, that sucks. I was going to go with Dougs, but not anymore.