[da judge]

I visited this moldy oldie this weekend. A 1970 GTO that came equipped with a Ram Air engine and was built 2/70. Like I said in a previous thread, the cowl data plate and the VIN number on the dash were long gone. I wanted to see if I could get a VIN from some where else on the car. With a screw driver, a pair of tin snips and a vice-grip, I took out the fuel tank and took a section of the LH rear frame rail. I only got a small section of the build sheet from on top of the fuel tank. The only information it yielded was bucket seat, carpet and floor mat options. Taking the frame section home and cleaning off the rust exposed a 20Z130439 number. I would assume the full then would be 24237Z130439 right? With the Z making the car built in the Freemont Califonia.

The side of the frame section had the numbers 9799986 s 12 and under that was a
11 3 S2 HF. Does the 11 3 mean the frame was built Nov. 3rd? I then checked my 70 Arlington Judge built 4th week Jan. The numbers were 3960733 S 276 and under
that was 1 16 N1 XU. Why would these two 70's have different frame numbers?

[Sport71]

You forgot the "year" digit in the VIN. It would be 242370Z130439. Yes, the Z is for the Fremont, CA plant. Not sure on your frame Q's ...

[getmygoat]

You were able to cut the frame rail with tin snips? Wow, if its that rusted I'm surprised the #'s are still readable.

[SWEETJUDGE]

under the heater box is the hidden vin

[dr-doug]

SJ, You make statements sometimes as if they are the gospel. I have 3 70 judges from three different plants, none have a hidden VIN in the heater box area. I also have a '71 that has no "Secret VIN". My '69 will never be apart that far, however I have seen pictures of partial VIN's from some '69's. Get to work, your broke ...DW

[RAM AIR 1967]

I think the hidden VIN is found on most Firebirds.

[SWEETJUDGE]

they are on 69s......

[da judge]

Woops, I did forget the 0 in the VIN. I used the tin snips on what was left of the rusty floor. The vise grips worked on the unboxed section of the frame. Just clamp on a little piece at a time and work it back and forth till it breaks. Just for fun, I'll have my buddy run the VIN to see if it comes up on any current registered vehicle. You never know what happened to those tags.

[Held for Ransom]

455 frame. Built 02D.

[John V.]

First, the Feb '70 date checks out for VIN 242370Z130439. Several years ago I came across 242370Z131061. That GTO was shipped March 6, 1970. The VIN tag however had been swapped onto another '70 GTO that had been built in Dec., an obvious mismatch to the Dec. Data Plate tag that pointed to a likely theft when the car was new and laundered by swapping the VIN tag, probably from a wreck.

Frame 3960735 was the regular '70 Hardtop Frame. It is a Chevy p/n, so I assume was shared with the Chevelle.

You say yours is 3960733? Either the reference I have is incorrect or perhaps you have misread yours? Or maybe there is some other explanation.

Frame 9799986 was a PMD issued p/n and one of the last before the new p/n format (6 digits starting with 47xxxx) was introduced. It is reportedly specific for use with the 455, I've heard having to do with the motor mount brackets. If the car you found is not a 455, I'd bet that is still the original Frame, just perhaps the application for that Frame may have been more than just for the 455.

[Held for Ransom]

John, a 455 could have come with Ram Air (option 601). I just find it odd that the frame build date is 11 3 (might not be original).
http://www.forums.maxperformanceinc....d.php?t=513762

[John V.]

From the other post, it looks like the Hardtop Frame is 3960733.

And 3960735 appears to be a convertible Frame, not sure if is a Chevy p/n alternate to the PMD p/n 479715 convertible Frame, or maybe one of them is specific to the 455.

HFR, reason I am unsure about this car being a 455, the Hood decal says Ram Air. I could be wrong, but I thought the 455 cars had no hood scoop decal (or maybe said 455 on the scoops), with or without the Ram Air option. Is this incorrect?

Any chance the "455" Frame was also specified for the Ram Air cars?

I don't think the Frame fabrication date is too early. Given the condition of the car, it is unlikely (IMO) that there would have been any reason to do a Frame swap. Without checking for a VIN stamp, who knows? Odd perhaps. But I'd like to know more about the Frame p/n usage.

[Held for Ransom]

I just remember the Johnny Carson car having the Ram Air callout on that car. And, Martys' car that Lloyd purchased then sold (had the RA specified on build sheet, but no GTO decal). This callout (RA) looks black, which probably would not have gone with the white GTO callout. And, maybe the frame build is actually 1 13...

[BLKBRD]

Not all '69's have the VIN by the heater box.

[3 Chiefs]

Originally Posted by John V.

From the other post, it looks like the Hardtop Frame is 3960733.

And 3960735 appears to be a convertible Frame, not sure if is a Chevy p/n alternate to the PMD p/n 479715 convertible Frame, or maybe one of them is specific to the 455.

HFR, reason I am unsure about this car being a 455, the Hood decal says Ram Air. I could be wrong, but I thought the 455 cars had no hood scoop decal (or maybe said 455 on the scoops), with or without the Ram Air option. Is this incorrect?

Any chance the "455" Frame was also specified for the Ram Air cars?

I don't think the Frame fabrication date is too early. Given the condition of the car, it is unlikely (IMO) that there would have been any reason to do a Frame swap. Without checking for a VIN stamp, who knows? Odd perhaps. But I'd like to know more about the Frame p/n usage.

Don't know if this will help any but all information is good to have. I have a 1970 LeMans Sport convertible. I checked my frame number this morning. It reads
3960735 S 291
It is the original boxed frame.
Paul

[da judge]

I have a photo of the junkyard 70 car dating back to around 1990. The Ram Air callouts were white then. Age has turned them to a black color. Tonight I'll have to double check ther numbers on my Judge frame. I sanded down to bare steel, so I'm fairly sure 3960733 was the number.

[John V.]

HFR, so there is a good chance that a 455 GTO with the Sales Code 601 option did have "Ram Air" decals on the scoops? Therefore, a good chance this car was a 455 Ram Air car.

For those keeping score on the '70 A body Frame p/ns, here is how I think they shake out:

3960733 - 400 (including RA & RAIV) 2 dr. Hardtop Frame, Manifest code XU
3960735 - 400 (including RA & RAIV) Convertible Frame, Manifest code XV
9799986 - 2 dr. Hardtop Frame specific with 455, Manifest code HF
479715 - Convertible Frame specific with 455, Manifest code HT

Apparently, the latter two had specific motor mount brackets, only used with the 455. I labelled the first two as 400 Frames, I don't know if the 6 cyl & 350 equipped cars used same motor mount brackets or not. Also, I'm not positive if the Manual Trans cars shared same Frames with Auto Trans cars?

My list is not consistent with what is claimed in the Resto Guide but makes more logical sense, IMO. If anybody knows of an exception or can confirm same usage with the 350, 6 cyl or by trans, please post.

[Held for Ransom]

John,
Yes the 455 Ram Air would have had the callout (box 99 on build sheet), I checked out a couple sheets. And, yes I think that car may have been a 455 RA car, built on Wednesday, Feb. 25, 1970 (and maybe shipped on Feb. 27 or Mar. 2, if someone pulls PHS).

Here is the frame sheet (first one is a Grand Prix).

[JLHarper]

What was the call out in box 99? Descriptive.

I can barely read my build sheet but has black Ram Air decals on Palasides Green car, #s 455 with 601 option late December 69 built.

[da judge]

What would be the three letters on the cowl data plate for a Freemont car?