[MOJO Catalina]

Lotsa good stuff there..

I definately get the point about returning it to the factory recommended settings and going from there. I have the '63 shop manual here so I'll do that later today.

It makes sense about the worn bushings. I'm also thinking that years of condensation may have polluted the fluid and it may need changing.

The possibility of a cracked torus doesn't sound good. That may be cause to bring "Old Jim" out behind the barn and shoot him.

I'm still hoping the engine will accomodate a later trans and will get under there today to "see what I can see.."

I got my first thumbs up in the car yesterday.
The guy said he had a '65 GTO that looked alot like it...

[stevep]

Don't bother to change the fluid until you determine that the trans is usasble.

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

OK, so BVR busted my chops...all I can say is that it worked for me.
Sorry if i sounded that way, I should have phrased it differently.
just making the point that the procedure is so easy and it works
If it doesnt work without variations there are other problems

But here are a couple of pages from the Hydra-Matic manual for the 3 speed automatic.
Pretty simple using a stubby phillips as the 1/4" gauge pin.

As a side note, the book refers to the Catalina & GP 3 speed as the Roto Hydra-Matic and the Bonneville & Star Chief 4 speed automatic as the Super Hydra-Matic.

I wish I knew the development history on the ROTO and if the designers ever got their butt kicked properly.
Oddly enough it was the first GM trans to have an actual torque converter (internal) The 4sp hydros had only a non torque multiplying fluid clutch (external)
Some ad copy actually promoted the ROTO's torque converter as a '4th' gear. I always figured the no-man's-land between 1st and 2nd as a 5th gear LOL

[stevep]

Blame the guys at Olds, it was their design. But it did look great on paper!

I have seen the Roto called a 4 speed and a 3 speed with a 2 stage 1st, which actually makes sense as you do not actually feel the actual 1-2 shift because it is when the multiplier catches up with the torus.

[MOJO Catalina]

OK, I got it back to what I think is proper adjustment and it's still wacko.
Funny thing is that when I put it in 1st I can hear the engine grab and the car lurches. Same when going between 1st and reverse. Definately grabs but when power is applied the car moves some but engine revs beyond the movement of the car. Like a standard trans with the clutch half, 3/4 of the way up. Slippage to me.
Anyway, I'll try a few more adjustments before final declaration but I've started looking for TH 400's locally or a wrecked 3 on the tree Catalina from 62-64 for the pedals and bell housing parts... Anybody know if a TH400 from a '68 Firebird would be good for this car? I have a lead on one. Driveshaft/yoke/yolk situation compatible?

[63 Pontiac]

I have a Slim-Jim that I pulled from a driver last year, I drove the car around town and on the highway a little bit and it seemed to shift fine. It may be only a short term solution but you can have it if you come get it, I'm about 3 hrs from Charlotte in Blacksburg, VA.

[MOJO Catalina]

That's very nice of you to offer.
I may take you up on that but it would have to be in the second week of January.
Please hang on to it for me.

[63 Pontiac]

No problem, nobody else wants it

[stevep]

As Scott M would say "such a deal!"

[pfilean]

stevep Blame the guys at Olds, it was their design. But it did look great on paper!

I have seen the Roto called a 4 speed and a 3 speed with a 2 stage 1st, which actually makes sense as you do not actually feel the actual 1-2 shift because it is when the multiplier catches up with the torus.
12-14-2009 01:38 AM

I have been intrigued in these posts about Old Jim regarding 3sp and 4sp possibility. I don't have a 62 shop manual (only a 61) so I'm note sure what it says on the question. But since my Roto is a 61 I know I wish it acted like a 62 as described in a 1965 Motors manual on Roto HM. They describe the working of a 61 in different paragraphs than for the 62-64. The 62-64 gives descriptions of 4 speeds whereas the 61 only has 3 speeds noted. And what the Motors says of the 62-64 in the paragraph regarding 2nd speed "......As this happens the torus assembly functions as a simple fluid coupling and the effective ratio of the transmission changes."

Now that would be nice - for when the 61 changes completely from 1st to 2nd the abrupt ratio change is just to wide. So maybe a 62-64 is a slightly different transmission than a 61 and will seem to have a variable ratio first giving the appearance of a second gear. But like I said I don't have a 62 shop manual so I don't know what it says.

[stevep]

Believe me, they work exactly the same from 61-64. They just changed their description of what it was.

You will never feel a Roto change gears 3 times, no matter what year it is. You will only feel 2 gear changes.

[poison heart]

IDK, I say screw it all and put a 4 speed in it

[MOJO Catalina]

Originally Posted by stevep

Believe me, they work exactly the same from 61-64. They just changed their description of what it was.

You will never feel a Roto change gears 3 times, no matter what year it is. You will only feel 2 gear changes.

I guess this one is so bad there's a definate hesitation and hang-up between all three positions. Must be that cracked torus, keeping some pressure in as it blows throught he crack?

[MOJO Catalina]

Originally Posted by 63 Pontiac

No problem, nobody else wants it

I'll be sure to bring my core with me so you won't feel like you're just "giving it away"

Seriously though, if it's in working order I may just swap it in and see how it goes. When working properly, I assume they are at least OK transmissions, right?

It's more within my realm of mechanical knowledge (and budget) to exchange what's there with the same type of trans than to revamp everything with trans, pedals, driveshaft etc.. It would be great to put a 4 on the floor in there at some point but it seems that hunting down all the components will be time consuming and/or costly beyond my current means.

If the TH400 swap was a "slam dunk" I'd do it right away but even that looks like $2000-$2500 by the time all the parts, adapter plate, driveshaft are gathered up.

Can anybody tell me what is cost them from start to finish to
A) Convert to a TH400
B) Convert to a 4 speed manual

[63 Pontiac]

Originally Posted by MOJO Catalina

I'll be sure to bring my core with me so you won't feel like you're just "giving it away"

Can anybody tell me what is cost them from start to finish to
A) Convert to a TH400
B) Convert to a 4 speed manual

HAHA, no cores accepted...

I'll take a stab at converting to a TH400:

-later model transmission crossmember $100
-having a driveshaft made $200
-rebuilt TH400 $600
-adapter plate, check w\Wilcap $600
-mini starter from RobbMc $250
-trans dipstick, nice one from Lokar $100

-total $1850

some guesstimating going on there but that's a ballpark number. It can be done cheaper, maybe even much cheaper if you already have the trans, etc. I think K. Seymour only has $200 in his adapter plate for the '63 GP he did.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 63 Pontiac

HAHA, no cores accepted...

I'll take a stab at converting to a TH400:

-later model transmission crossmember $100
-having a driveshaft made $200
-rebuilt TH400 $600
-adapter plate, check w\Wilcap $600
-mini starter from RobbMc $250
-trans dipstick, nice one from Lokar $100

-total $1850

some guesstimating going on there but that's a ballpark number. It can be done cheaper, maybe even much cheaper if you already have the trans, etc. I think K. Seymour only has $200 in his adapter plate for the '63 GP he did.

That's pretty close to my list, except I did the "economy" version:

Re-used my existing crossmember....$0
Re-used my existing starter............$0
Fresh TH400................................$75
Adapter plate...............................$600
Driveshaft....................................$300
Lokar dipstick...............................$100

Looks like about $1075

K

[poison heart]

But a fresh TH400 for $75 is not typical. I think $600-750 range for a fresh Th400 is a good deal.



I'll take a stab at the 4 speed guesstimation

M20 Muncie $500
bellhousing and flywheel $400
Stock clutch $150
shortened driveshaft $115
Hurst shifter and install kit $250
linkage probably $300

Of you could get lucky and find a $300 Muncie, pay $200 for bellhousing and flywheel, get a used hurst shifter for $100 and find linkage in a junkyard for $200 and that would put you closer to $1200.

All in all probably $1,500-$2,000 worth every penny

[MOJO Catalina]

Originally Posted by poison heart

But a fresh TH400 for $75 is not typical. I think $600-750 range for a fresh Th400 is a good deal.



I'll take a stab at the 4 speed guesstimation

M20 Muncie $500
bellhousing and flywheel $400
Stock clutch $150
shortened driveshaft $115
Hurst shifter and install kit $250
linkage probably $300

Of you could get lucky and find a $300 Muncie, pay $200 for bellhousing and flywheel, get a used hurst shifter for $100 and find linkage in a junkyard for $200 and that would put you closer to $1200.

All in all probably $1,500-$2,000 worth every penny

The "Linkage in a junkyard."
Do you mean the Zbar and Pedals necessary to operate the clutch?

As far as the TH400, if I end up going that way (the wife says she'd like the better automatic-go figure) is the short tail or long tail better for the GP and if so, why?

Is the adapter only necessary when using a CHevy trans or is it necessary on the BOP version as well becuase of the possible starter situation (still haven't been under to look, lousy weather here.)

[poison heart]

Yes, z bar and rods. Or you could go hydraulic

post 64 pontiac blocks have a different bolt pattern and I don't think the TH400 came out in Pontiacs until 65??? SO I doubt there is an adapter for a 64 block and BOP TH400.

What about using an ST400? Didn't that come out in 64?

[Engine-Ear]

Hmm, never heard of an ST-FOUR-hundred...the ST300 is the 2-speed auto used behind 326 Tempests and 6-poppers... did you mean the "switch-pitch" 400?