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#21
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Along those same lines, 2 cars here that are (or were at the time) making around 600 hp/tq, and weighing 4000 lbs. (one weighed 4108 with me in it) both ran mid 11's with the stock "original" shafts and greaseable u-joints in both cars for years. You can figure your bird is quite a bit lighter than that, and a lighter car is certainly easier on parts. Just to add, what I've seen break more often than u-joints are the cast yokes. Last edited by Formulajones; 10-15-2021 at 02:19 PM. |
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#22
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Because of the similarity, Ill also be curious what you run. I just converted to a Terminator but with the Q Jet I ran a best of 12.2 with a 1.7 60'. You have a little more cam, I have a little bit more head and converter.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
#23
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#24
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It has 1350 joints in the front with a forged slip yoke, but a solid 1310 in the back to match the factory pinion on the nova 8.5 rear end. I originally was going to have the driveshaft guy put a 1350 conversion joint to the 1310 on the back, but he talked me out of it. Said the solid 1310 would be stronger than the conversion joint. I also have 3.08s, but in an upgraded 30 spline differential. Heads are older bathtub style E heads with a little work. I think they flowed 303 cfm. Cam is a custom roller. Duration is similar to yours, in fact it might be identical, but yours has more lift. RPM intake with a little port work done to match 300 cfm heads. Im thinking of going to 3.42s this winter so when I do that I probably also upgrade the pinion yoke to a forged 1350 unit. FWIW Ive done a ton of laps on basically the same thing as the Cobras. Its fine. Even with normal tires the track is stickier than the road. I like the street tire class racing, just less likely to break stuff.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
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#25
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Great info - thanks
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#26
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If you do end up going to 1350 joints at some point, just get a new shaft made. Getting ends put on is kinda pricey for what it is anyway. I think I paid $100 to get mine shortened when I swapped to the 8.5. A whole brand new one at a larger diameter is only like $300.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
#27
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I don't think I mentioned it, but both of those cars I mentioned earlier have both been running their original 50+ year old driveshafts at those weights and going mid 11's. Both cars were raced 2-3 times a year for the last 30+ years.
Both of them have only just recently been upgraded to a larger driveshaft with 1350 joints. |
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#28
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Just to add for conversation,,,
I've had a few shafts made at our local driveline shop, and they have all been steel. He uses a thicker wall seamless tube. When I did the 600hp shaft with 1330 joints for our daily driver, it's 3" diameter tube. I have to say, even that one was substantially heavier than the original stock shaft I pulled out. Really makes you think about how wimpy the stock shafts can be, yet the abuse they have taken in the other cars...... When we had a steel shaft made for dad's car, he wanted the 1350 version, and that one rated at 1000hp ended up being 4" in diameter. That thing is friggin heavy. Trying to wrap your hands around it and get it in the car, geeeez lol. I did an aluminum 1350 shaft in my other car thanks to Dave hooking me up. It's 4" diameter yet felt like a feather, even compared to the original stock shaft I pulled out. I liked the unsprung weight idea simply because I run 4.10's in that particular car, and with the 4L80E that shaft is now spinning pretty good at 70 mph just cruising. 118-ish in the traps is also buzzing it pretty good, and I put the stock shaft through that for years, lol. Just something worth considering. |
#29
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Driveshaft diameter depends on length as much as it does torque load. And the material it's made from, of course.
The longer the shaft, the bigger around it needs to be. VERY bad things happen when the diameter isn't big enough, and the speed (RPM of the shaft) gets critical. It's a great way to find out if you mounted your driveshaft loop securely enough. |
#30
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I ran my RAIV car for 15 years with a stick drive shaft abd lakewood joints.
I still have the original drive shaft w factory joints as well So clearly Stephens didn’t break them. This is a stick car and while it had always been on fairly narrow slicks when steohens had it it 7 inch slicks. I ran it w 9 inch slicks w high ROM launches and it was fine. Now that same drive shaft I raced it with w the Lakewood’s is in my turbo car running 9s and surviving. The stock drive shaft is back in the RAIV car temporarily until I find another to put Lakewood’s in.
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Happiness is just a turbocharger away! 960 HP @ 11 psi, 9.70 at 146. Iron heads, iron stock 2 bolt block , stock crank, 9 years haven't even changed a spark plug! selling turbos and turbo related parts since 2005! |
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#31
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My Strange 3" Chromemoly shaft with solid 1350 joints was only about 300 at the time, very reasonable, plus I used their ends for trans and rear end, under a 100 a piece . A local shop is a dealer so didnt have to pay shipping. Very good piece of mind and a nice product
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Illinois Outlaw Gassers 6.27@107 9.97@131 |
#32
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I would agree the strange stuff is good but I’ve seen a lot of guys break driveshafts that had good stuff . Why mine survived? Who knows. . Maybe because I air down my slicks enough so they can wrap up and take some of the HIt out. Really hard to say. Many aftermarket driveshafts are more about being lighter than stronger. Again can’t say what the reason is but can say that I’ve seen stock driveshafts live a long time and seen some Good aftermarket ones beat up some floor pans . Maybe people don’t use loctite and the u joints get wobbly, maybe they stressed them Somehow when they were out of the car, a dent or a stress riser of some kind who knows why one survived and one doesn’t but I’ve seen both types fail Had a similar debate w a friend About n case 8.2 10 bolts Vs corporate 8.5s last week and why rear diff blow up. Whole can of worms there.
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Happiness is just a turbocharger away! 960 HP @ 11 psi, 9.70 at 146. Iron heads, iron stock 2 bolt block , stock crank, 9 years haven't even changed a spark plug! selling turbos and turbo related parts since 2005! |
#33
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The driveline shop I called that suggested the 1310s said the 3” driveshaft with 1310s would cost $375!!
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#34
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Ask them how much for 1350s.
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#35
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When I had the 1330 shaft done for 600hp/tq in 3" steel, it was around $450. And when he does a steel 1350 shaft for 1000hp it's right at $600. On a side note, I had the 4" aluminum shaft done with 1350 joints, believe they rated that one at 1000hp, and it was also $600 |
#36
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Thanks for insight
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#37
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i agree with roctimus & FJ that you should be fine for just a few test & tunes to see what the car will do. you said you have drag radials, not slicks as someone said earlier... with foot braking an auto & average track prep a stock driveshaft or u-joints in good shape shouldnt break . but the weak link is probably the u-joints. for peace of mind you can upgrade to solid joints, i used moog "super strong" brand solid joints on my stock yoke shaft & have done at least 15 low 11 sec runs & probably 20 other mid to high 11sec trying to get the best time, i have M/T drag radials with an auto & foot break it. car will do 119-123mph with a 500+hp 467 stroker.
history on my driveshaft is its a stock unit from a 1974 t/a that was behind a mild 455 in my t/a i had back in the 90's that was beaten & abused daily & nightly for about 10 years & close to or over 100k miles. that car died but i saved the 455 & driveline parts for a future build.... 10+15 years later i finally got around to doing another car to use it & went with the current stroker engine i have & reused the driveshaft but had a local shop make a new 3" shaft & reuse the yokes with solid ujoints, & have been racing & abusing that car for 5+ years now, so the yokes have almost 50 years of abuse behind a torquey 455 & lots of time behind a ~600lb/ft 467 with a lot of low 11 sec runs. however, i realize ive pushed it far enough & am planning to buy a strange D/S with 1350 front yoke before trying to go an faster or break into the 10's. i am debating on doing the rear 1350 for the same reason as roctimus because changing the pinion is a PITA from what ive read, & the chances of a rear pinion yoke breaking at this power level with an auto & radials is pretty low... & if it does break at least its at the rear of the car & not as much of a safety concern as the front. im hoping a good solid rear joint will be enough for a mostly street car & limited track use. |
#38
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Thanks for the real life example! I haven't actually ordered the tires yet but they are in my shopping cart! Mickey Thompson ET Street S/S, P235/60-15 to go on my spare 15x7 Rally IIs. Tread width is 8.31 as I'm limited in space with the 69 Bird quarter panel wheel well shape and the 8.5 is from a second gen so slightly wider than the factory 8.2 rear.
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#39
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Quick question regarding my frame connectors. They are the bolt-in Competition Engineering square tubing type. Mine are welded in to the front subframe and bolted in in the front of rear leaf spring pocket. Any idea what power level these bolt-in types are good for? In other words, should they be welded in at rear for my power level (521 hp/631 tq engine dyno). This will be on Mickey Thompson ET Street S/S, 235/60-15.
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Will Rivera '69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears '64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears '69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project |
#40
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it comes down to how much of a race car you intend this to be, sounds like its mostly a street car & i dont think youd see any real benefit welding them at the rear too. plus it will be a hassle to ever remove the subframe for you or the next owner. with drag radials & limited track time its probably not worth it, they are doing their job as is but again all depends on how much you plan to race the car. |
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