#1  
Old 10-17-2021, 12:31 AM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Default Cam Thoughts for a 428 - suitability of a RA IV?

Good evening.

I was moving along putting together an engine when the suitability of a Butler Ram Air IV roller cam was raised. I am looking thoughts/experience and appreciate your feedback.

'68 428 going into a '68 bird. M-20 and I am thinking a 3.23 posi. 70-72 400-455 intake or a Performer RPM.

Heads are early #16(screw in studs) which I believe are 72 CC. Going to get pistons made with 22 CC dishes to achieve 9.5 compression for street car with pump gas.

I would like to run high :12s or low :13s. Faster is always better, but I would also like to be freeway able.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Butler RA IV roller kit (lifters, chain, etc.), but a question cam up on the suitability of the cam for a 9.5 compression engine. 428 were 10.5 or 10.75 in the day. Butler stocks 10.5 pistons.

So two questions:

How will a 9.5 compression impact a RAIV grind performance? Will the cam perform like it should? Will I be happy? Lots of subjective there...

If a RAIV grind is not a good fit, what roller cam would have a similar sound/idle? RAIII a better choice? Or the CompCams middle grind? 224 228. Although I think the 110 LSA is a bit low.

I am not super technical, so subjective thoughts appreciated.

Mike
Houston, TX

  #2  
Old 10-17-2021, 02:34 AM
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pastry_chef pastry_chef is offline
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You didn't mention if your heads are unported? Ideally I'd hope to have some work done there.

Do you have any rocker arms already? Ratio?

If your static compression will be 9.5 and you have valve springs and clearances for the lift. I would go with a custom cam like the SD "Stump Puller" - 112 LSA.

Comp lobes

Intake 3194B
282 @ .006
230 @ .050
157 @ .200
.389 lobe

Exhaust 3196B
288 @ .006
236 @ .050
162 @ .200
.390 lobe

  #3  
Old 10-17-2021, 04:33 AM
74Grandville 74Grandville is offline
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I would call Butler and ask them. Their cam may actually want more then 9.5 in a 428.


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  #4  
Old 10-17-2021, 09:18 AM
mikebaronehouston mikebaronehouston is offline
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Good information to request.

Heads will be ported; local porter calls it a stage I.

I am planning on 1.5 rockers. Probably the Butler stainless roller rockers.

I e-mailed Butler asking how the RAIV will like 9.5.

  #5  
Old 10-17-2021, 09:25 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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The XE lobes mentioned by pastry_chef have more beneficial valve lift than what Butler uses. That and more duration at 0.200" lift. Both better with the ported heads.



.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #6  
Old 10-17-2021, 09:57 AM
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High 12s should be a walk in the park for a 428. My old 400 did that with Comp's HR288(236/242, .520/.540). 750 Holley, Torker 2, unported #16s, 9.5 to 1, ram air manifolds, 3500 stall, and 3.23s. Very good street engine.

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69 GTO Liberty Blue/dark blue 467, 850 Holley, T2, Edelbrock Dport 310cfm w Ram Air manifolds, HFT 245/251D .561/.594L, T400, 9" w 3.50s 3905lbs 11.59@ 114, 1.57/ 60'
  #7  
Old 10-17-2021, 10:23 AM
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Beware!
Porters who do things in stages like 1,2 and 3 many times are manly Chevy, Ford or Mopar porting guys and do not know how to make the best use of our big 2.11” 30 degree seat intake valve and the big curtain area it can provide.

I would with out fail ask to see flow test reports of what there level one porting job gains on Pontiac iron heads and in specific where and what size the intake side of the heads minimum port area gets increased to.

If the guy responds back during the conversation that he increases minimum port area at the push rod bulge, then don’t even bother pulling the heads out of the trunk of the car to drop off there because that is not where the minimum port area is in a stock D port iron head!

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Old 10-17-2021, 10:24 AM
Formulas Formulas is offline
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Dont assume those #16s are 72 cc's most online charts have heads in that year range almost all the same

Heads destined for stick cars have smaller chambers that heads destined for automatics

Check them to assure target compression so you dont spend thousands and not get desired results you may want a 15 cc dish

  #9  
Old 10-17-2021, 11:13 AM
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One of my local Houston friends had 614 RAIV untouched heads on a 428 in a 70 Trans Am 4 speed with an Ultadyne 288.296 HFT form Butler that ran high 12s easily but broke Muncies!

FWIW a RAIV head 428 type motor(400 block 4" stroke crank) is my plan for my 65 GTO.

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1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
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Old 10-17-2021, 12:10 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Note the comment regarding the compression ratio with Dave Bisschop's "Stump Puller" here....

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewPro...productID=1815

"In a recent dyno test this cam installed in a 464ci engine with 9.5 to 1 compression..."

Same seat duration and lobe separation as the Butler cam.

.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #11  
Old 10-18-2021, 09:41 AM
soupman soupman is offline
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In another thread I posted the cam I am using in my 428 with pocket ported heads. 9.8 cr, with qjet, SD ported cast iron intake with Ram air manifolds. It is a great cam, easy 12 flat quarter mile and very streetable. It’s similar to the stump puller, it was a cam Pontiac dude used to spec ( called the Butcher Saturday night special) but bought through Kauffman, 3315B and 3316B lobes on 112 lsa. I drive this car everywhere, I have 3:27 and get over 20mpg, revs to over 5000, vacuum is 14.5 at 650rpm. This is my second 428 with this cam, very steetable, I decided to stick with this cam even though the faster ramps of the XE stump puller could be better in theory, but had very good results with this particular cam,IMHO.


Last edited by soupman; 10-18-2021 at 09:55 AM.
  #12  
Old 10-28-2021, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebaronehouston View Post
Good evening.

I was moving along putting together an engine when the suitability of a Butler Ram Air IV roller cam was raised. I am looking thoughts/experience and appreciate your feedback.

'68 428 going into a '68 bird. M-20 and I am thinking a 3.23 posi. 70-72 400-455 intake or a Performer RPM.

Heads are early #16(screw in studs) which I believe are 72 CC. Going to get pistons made with 22 CC dishes to achieve 9.5 compression for street car with pump gas.

I would like to run high :12s or low :13s. Faster is always better, but I would also like to be freeway able.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Butler RA IV roller kit (lifters, chain, etc.), but a question cam up on the suitability of the cam for a 9.5 compression engine. 428 were 10.5 or 10.75 in the day. Butler stocks 10.5 pistons.

So two questions:

How will a 9.5 compression impact a RAIV grind performance? Will the cam perform like it should? Will I be happy? Lots of subjective there...

If a RAIV grind is not a good fit, what roller cam would have a similar sound/idle? RAIII a better choice? Or the CompCams middle grind? 224 228. Although I think the 110 LSA is a bit low.

I am not super technical, so subjective thoughts appreciated.

Mike
Houston, TX
Mike,

I'm a little late to the party, but maybe I can help with your decision.

I have a '70 TA with 614 heads and run the cam in the pix attached. It is a 400 with a .30 overbore and a 427 stroker kit. Comes out to 433CID. Here is a video of the sound of the car with this cam since you asked about sound. It is a video shot by Chris "The Boss" from a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAFVExVbLXY

Uncorrected numbers were 447HP@5,000RPM and 535 TQ @3,500RPM. I estimate the corrected numbers are 460 HP and 545 TQ. This is thru RAIV exhaust manifolds. Compression is 9.9 to 1. The cam is a Butler Custom Grind.

Hope this helps.

Jim
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2021, 06:58 AM
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67Fbird 67Fbird is offline
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food for thought here..... something I am in the middle of currently. WITH that much of a dish piston EXPECT to have to rebalance the bottom end????
The OEM rods will PROBABLY NOT CLEAR the inside of the piston without some clearance work done to them on the balance pad on top of wrist pin!!!! While this is simple enough to do (took me about 1 hr to all 8 rods) by using an OLD wrist pin ground down to .978 for slip fit assembly. NOW...you need to rebalance all the rods...which leads to ...rebalance the crank.....just some FYI to add to your budget.

The 041 cam has alot of overlap so 9.5 might be the bottom of the scale for it to be "happy" under 3000 rpm. I can say it was THE funnest cam i ever used in my 10.5:1 400. Poor Bird went thru 4 different cams in search of MORE power.....it died with the 041 doing it's job!

  #14  
Old 10-29-2021, 04:57 PM
soupman soupman is offline
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Napster- that is the exact cam I just mentioned above in my post. Excellent cam for a ,street car. I raced a bmw 3 series the other day from a roll and he looked like he was going backwards….
I see butler has no lobes but I bet they are the same as mine. Here is my cam card.

Btw that video clip sounds just like my car. I get more lope when idle down to 600rpm but I usually leave it around 700rpm since I have a 5 speed.
This is the same cam Jim butcher used in his 65 Catalina to beat z06 vette’s at the drags. He ran mid 11’s with this cam.
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Last edited by soupman; 10-29-2021 at 05:06 PM.
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