#61  
Old 09-28-2021, 02:30 AM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Posting some H O Rocket Box documents to the forum that seemed to have gone missing at least when I looked for them I could not find them .This is but a few, there are plenty more, but some are to large .I found some 53 and 52 page HO documents .However I can't download the large files to this forum . If there is a way please tell me and I will send them . I will send more small files to . When you read the text files I edited the names so my reader can read back the text with out the names and what they drove over there lives.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	HO 1974 Trans Am SD-455 NHRA SS KA Record Holder.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	64.6 KB
ID:	573964   Click image for larger version

Name:	PHR1973OctArticlePg24.jpg
Views:	141
Size:	88.9 KB
ID:	573966   Click image for larger version

Name:	H-O Racings Rocket Box.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	57.4 KB
ID:	573967  
Attached Files
File Type: txt Flow-stream energy HO .txt (70.7 KB, 171 views)
File Type: txt H-O Racing .txt (81.5 KB, 112 views)


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 09-28-2021 at 02:45 AM.
  #62  
Old 09-28-2021, 06:07 AM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

See: John Wallace For Block Vin. details, but nobody even thought about the 1960's early to middle Motor Vehicle Identification numbers, that is why no body new what they meant and very few will unless they see what was produced on this site. So lets keep them guessing !

  #63  
Old 10-04-2021, 02:05 AM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

H-O Racing's "Rocket Box". Mike, found the photo's and some text on his computer to fill in the missing ones in this existing post.See "HO Information Input Divulged" under Tradermike2012 please ,this info. I posted here will be copied over to a new post so this forum can repair the lost data.

  #64  
Old 10-04-2021, 04:55 AM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tekuhn View Post
Sounds like good summary to end on. You’ll never convince anyone the factory installed a ‘66 tri-power and a 10 year old cam that’s milder than an 068 as some kind of special order package.
Mikes answer: No but a place like Royal Pontiac Bobcat would do just that , use a Tri-power cam in a 428 ci Pontiac as there upgrade. The cam I pulled from the 428 is the only specified Tri-power cam for the Tri-power system. This is why I want to here from a Royal Bobcat owner or some one who worked there to learn how they stamped there blocks. Remember Royal Bobcat would have received the 428 motor on a crate un- stamped most likely and the vehicle to receive this motor upgrade from the factory was Engine less . It is a shot in the wind but not impossible. Question is did Royal stamp the date of service upside down on the passenger Block side below the head?Also did Royal install the Tri-power cam along with the Tri-power carbs. in this particular Engine. Who knows it is one Wild Factory product set-up out of the Box though. I am installing the Torque converter this weekend and we finished a refresh paint job under the vehicle and in the Engine compartment. Next is to detail the custom self made Engine wire harness with painless wire loom and soon it will be running again.


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 10-04-2021 at 05:09 AM.
  #65  
Old 10-04-2021, 03:51 PM
jerry455 jerry455 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: sterling hts mi
Posts: 296
Default

The cars that were getting 428's installed were not engine less. They were customers cars that were driven in and the engines replaced. I don't believe there was a "factory" Bobcat package. It was a dealer installed package like many other dealers performed. They removed the original engine and put in the new one. Who knows, maybe they stamped the new engine with the same engine number. That would make a sleeper. I thought the 068 cam was the same as the tri power cam.

  #66  
Old 10-04-2021, 04:00 PM
grandam1979 grandam1979 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ohio, Findlay
Posts: 1,428
Default

I would think any dealer installed engine would be an SR block

  #67  
Old 10-04-2021, 05:17 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

Tradermike 2012 -- I disagree on your assessment of the 866 cam as being a special Tri-Power cam. It was used from 1958 to 1962 on a number of different engines both 4-barrel and Tri-Power and simply a stock cam for many engines of that period. It is slightly smaller than an 068 cam and certainly not any type of upgrade over the original equipment 068 cam.

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #68  
Old 10-11-2021, 07:20 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
Tradermike 2012 -- I disagree on your assessment of the # 866 Cam as being a special Tri-Power cam. It was used from 1958 to 1962 on a number of different engines both 4-barrel and Tri-Power and simply a stock Cam for many engines of that period. It is slightly smaller than an "068" Cam and certainly "not" any type of upgrade over the Original Equipment "068" cam.
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS: I read some were on a Forum a description of the various Cams used over the years on the Pontiac Engines many were used in the 4 bbl. carb. applications. Only the # 866 was designated specifically for Tri-Power, why is that? I simply deduced that the Pontiac designers spent allot of time on the test course to determine and come down with that result. I personally like the # 866 Cam through my own limited experience. Yes, the "067 and 068" are close in specs but they were designed for the 4bbl Quadra- jet and that is where they belong.

I have no problem with people installing Tri-Power carbs on their 1967 Pontiacs and above Engines, but that won't win them points at a show. In my case the 428 ci Pontiac Engine is more proper in my 1979 Pontiac Firebird TA than the 403 ci Olds ever was. I feel like I am fixing Pontiac's mistake. I have the "041" Cam installed in my 1967 Pontiac 428 ci "HO" know.

I recently advanced the Cam Timing and soon I will see if this helps with the lower end Torque as I planned it should. I just installed a new HD Torque Converter from Hughes and will let people know how the Performance has improved. We serviced the TH 400 Throttle Body with a B+M **** improvement kit and Flushed the Trans. We added a Remote Trans. Filter to. Added new Fluid with 3 bottles of Trans. additives as we were diagnosing the Broken Torque Converter problem that has Plagued me for the last 5 months.

New Inner Trans Filter, Vacuum Modulator and repair to the Detent Solenoid. We inspected the Governor and cleaned it as well as a small screen in the Governor Tube that was both dirty and collapsed. We are installing a new Electrical junction Box from the Rear Batt. in the Trunk and a Blade Fuse Panel under the hood for all the add on accessories.

New wire Loom from Painless and Summit to. Installed Rear Brake lines and Proportioning valve. Need to order the front Brake lines next. We have the new rebuild kits for the Carbs. but I am not sure If I should Buff them Bright and Clear or Media Blast and clear or paint them with Eastwoods Products. Mike out .

  #69  
Old 10-11-2021, 08:34 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry455 View Post
The cars that were getting 428's installed were not engine less. They were customers cars that were driven in and the engines replaced. I don't believe there was a "factory" Bobcat package. It was a dealer installed package like many other dealers performed. They removed the original engine and put in the new one. Who knows, maybe they stamped the new engine with the same engine number. That would make a sleeper. I thought the 068 cam was the same as the tri power cam.
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS: one person TOLD ME THAT Pontiac NEVER HAD A 428 CI "HO". He WAS WRONG I FOUND IT TO BE TRUE IN a Pontiac brochure's YEARS LATER. So, I READ SOME PLACE THAT One could purchase a Pontiac upgrade to a 428 ci through a dealership. That dealership could get the motor sent by "crate" and the car sent without the motor installed, this could be a way "not" to do double work on the assembly line and keep the price down for the customer. Can I prove this or was the person wrong, your guess is as good as mine? Search the facts. Some called the "067 and 068" cam Tri- Power cams I agree or "HO" cam too. An area I found on line in a file someone invented showed a list of Cams and on that particular list only the # 866 called out to be used in the Tri-Power application. I don't know why but we do know that lots of tests were done on Engine packages to learn what Vehicle got what Cam or Carb. combination or a 4 seed or Automatic Trans etc... My Vehicle had a 403 Olds Engine in it when I bought this second-hand project. Tri-Power and # 866 cam was installed later. Some people say that the numbers stamped on my P.S. below the Head are upside down because when a mechanic upgrades a motor this is how they keep track of what they do to the motor in case a problem comes up.


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 10-11-2021 at 08:40 PM.
  #70  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:13 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandam1979 View Post
I would think any dealer installed engine would be an SR block
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS: What is SR Block Please, I never came across ... Do you mean service Block? In order to be a service Block, the Block would not have been stamped yet at the Factory and could very well have been stamped at the Dealership. In my case the stamp is YK and a EUN was stamped in the correct place under the P.S. Head left side sitting in the car. My Block shows an additional # 2288 stamped upside-down in light pressed form plus the letter "P" is for Pontiac (the assembly plant) that I learned recently. I still wonder if a place like Royal Pontiac stamped there Upgrade Blocks this way and weather they installed the Tri-power cam intake and carbs?

  #71  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:42 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

Mike,its been too long!Most guys around back there have passed on.For sure your car did not leave the factory with it.Get the PHS and see how your car left the factory!It will tell you a lot more than just guessing and dreaming.Tom

  #72  
Old 10-11-2021, 11:11 PM
NeighborsComplaint's Avatar
NeighborsComplaint NeighborsComplaint is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Elgin
Posts: 2,468
Default

I'm no authority but from all accounts I've read and heard, a backwards swap to multiple carburetion and an earlier camshaft were never a part of any "Royal Bobcat Package". Performance upgrades are intended to improve performance, not lessen it and while both pieces you possess are nice nostalgia parts, they would not have been considered performance upgrades by a shop as sophisticated as Royal Pontiac.

Here's a 1970 Car and Driver article describing exactly what Jerry said earlier. GM did not allow a motor larger than 400cid to be installed in the intermediate GTO. 428 crate motors were swapped in by Royal Pontiac which would have been SR engines purchased from Pontiac. Whether these engines would have been VIN stamped for the cars that received them is doubtful as they already carried an SR designation and identifiable as not original to the car.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...d-test-review/

According to the following article, The only engine-less cars shipped to Royal Pontiac were the 428CID RA V GTO Bobcat. They were not consigned but sold directly to Royal as original owner, and came less engine along with an ala carte 428 RA V crate engine.

https://www.streetmusclemag.com/news...gto-ram-air-v/

Good read here on the depth of the Royal Pontiac Bobcat mods. https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-pr...royal-pontiac/ It documents 3 levels of "Bobcat Packages" available mail order (parts only) or installed by Royal Pontiac.

1) Distributor re-curve kit w. Mallory points & condensor
Carburetor jetting optimization
Shim head gaskets to raise compression

2) Cylinder head blueprint in conjunction with 1)

3) Full NHRA C/Stock preparation (on 400 CID equipped cars)


In any case, a tripower retrofit does not appear to have been a part of the "Bobcat Package" for a 400 or 428.

Under NHRA C/Stock rules, an earlier tripower installation would have been disallowed along with the 428CID transplant as neither would have met the showroom stock criteria of the NHRA nor does it appear to have been a part of any documented Royal Bobcat package.

__________________
Triple Black 1971 GTO
  #73  
Old 10-12-2021, 11:46 AM
Keith Seymore's Avatar
Keith Seymore Keith Seymore is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Motor City
Posts: 8,179
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Mike,its been too long!Most guys around back there have passed on.For sure your car did not leave the factory with it.Get the PHS and see how your car left the factory!It will tell you a lot more than just guessing and dreaming.Tom
I'm checking in every so often but having a little trouble following the discussion and train of thought.

K

__________________
'63 LeMans Convertible
'63 Grand Prix
'65 GTO - original, unrestored, Dad was original owner, 5000 original mile Royal Pontiac factory racer
'74 Chevelle - original owner, 9.85 @ 136 mph besthttp://www.superchevy.com/features/s...hevy-chevelle/
My Pontiac Story: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524
"Intro from an old Assembly Plant Guy":http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926
  #74  
Old 10-12-2021, 12:13 PM
tekuhn tekuhn is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: East Texas
Posts: 410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 View Post
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS: What is SR Block Please, I never came across ... Do you mean service Block? In order to be a service Block, the Block would not have been stamped yet at the Factory and could very well have been stamped at the Dealership.
SR stands for Service Replacement and the blocks are clearly marked from the factory. I guess there might have been exceptions, but mine was stamped and had a matching wire tag attached.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	6871383B-851C-411A-BE6B-7534F7FAC4F1.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	49.0 KB
ID:	574981   Click image for larger version

Name:	74FB0AE9-34C0-4BE1-BCB3-C78C05CE1377.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	75.0 KB
ID:	574982  

__________________
Hoping to finish a project while I'm still able to push the clutch in....

1963 Tempest Convertible (195-1bbl, 3-speed transaxle. 428 RAIV, 5-speed, IRS planned) Pictures
  #75  
Old 10-12-2021, 03:05 PM
geeteeohguy's Avatar
geeteeohguy geeteeohguy is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Fresno, California
Posts: 5,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
I'm checking in every so often but having a little trouble following the discussion and train of thought.

K
Me too. I've been into Pontiacs for over 40 years and have never heard of a 'block installation date' on an engine. Ever.

__________________
Jeff
  #76  
Old 10-12-2021, 05:54 PM
Joe's Garage Joe's Garage is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Las Vega$, NV
Posts: 637
Default That's because THEY DON'T EXIST!

JOE'S ASS-ANSWER TO THIS: Not anywhere. Not ever. Never. NOPE.

Except maybe somewhere where they ride purple unicorns to the pink cotton candy forest...... But not in this universe.

It's like wondering how many gallons of gas your GTO shipped with and what it smelled like. It's nonsense. Wasted brain cells that will never grow back.

JOSEPH OUT - literally. OUT.

  #77  
Old 10-12-2021, 09:34 PM
jerry455 jerry455 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: sterling hts mi
Posts: 296
Default

I thought I remembered a test that Royal did at Motor City Dragway comparing a Tri Power to the new Q Jet on a 1967 GTO. It showed that the Qjet was faster than the Tri Power. They ran the car several times in each configuration. Tri Power always looked cooler though.

  #78  
Old 10-12-2021, 10:13 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
I'm checking in every so often but having a little trouble following the discussion and train of thought.

K
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS: MY Engine WAS NOT IN THE Vehicle THAT Pontiac MAY OR MAY NOT NAVE INSTALLED IT IN. Brings UP THE MATTER IF A dealer INSTALLED THE motor IN A vehicle LATER. But it STANDS TO REASON SINCE THE Block CONTAINS THE EUN NUMBER THAT I SINCE LEARNED THE MEANING OF AND THAT # IS NOT PART OF THE VIN. Thus, if YOU THINK I CAN RUN THE Block EUN NUMBER through PHS AND THEY CAN FIND THE Vehicle INWHICH MY Engine WAS MATED TO ORIGINALY, I MIGHT TRY. However, WITHOUT THE ENTIRE VIN NUMBER I MIGHT BE SPENDING THE MONEY FOR NOTHING. SAVY. Don't make too much of this line of questioning, I may never learn what Auto my 428 Pontiac was in but I now know what the Numbers on the Block mean. So, thank you all for your input and good luck with your various projects. As for my project it is coming along and I can't wait until she's running again. I hope the Broken Torque Converter is all that broke from the original problem of running over a root under an Asphalt drive way (with my lowered 1979 Pontiac) Hurb Adams suspension kit. I hope the accident did not affect the Transmission internally. Mike out .

  #79  
Old 10-12-2021, 10:40 PM
Murf Murf is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: St. Marys Ks. U.S.A.
Posts: 1,486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
I'm checking in every so often but having a little trouble following the discussion and train of thought.

K
MURFS ANSWER TO THIS; me too.

  #80  
Old 10-12-2021, 11:23 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Coconut creek FL
Posts: 1,171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry455 View Post
I thought I remembered a test that Royal did at Motor City Dragway comparing a Tri Power to the new Q Jet on a 1967 GTO. It showed that the Q Jet was faster than the Tri Power. They ran the car several times in each configuration. Tri Power always looked cooler though.
MIKES ANSWER TO THIS:

I have read that story and some more, it can go either way, it depends on the set up. They never get the proper tune or don't use Air Induction on the Tri-power etc... The only way to prove that scenario is to match up 2 cars the exact same and tune and tires etc... I have seen a Dyno Test of Tri-Power vs Quad. Vs 2 4 bbl . What it showed is that each setup would reach HP and Torque numbers at different times. All worked and the end result is "What", you said it already "The Tri-Power is Eye Candy and at the Car shows they stick out" Don't they"?

My 1979 Pontic Firebird TA with the 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO with 1966 Tri-Power Intake and Carbs well-Tuned over a Total of Phenolics and Gaskets of one inch thick under them. When the passing Gear and Secondaries kicked in, working in conjunction with the original Torque Converter and Cam. I smashed down on the accelerator pedal at 70 MPH and the vehicle dropped into second Gear, at 90 MPH throwing me back in my seat and stuck to it, until 120 MPH. After that went slowly to 130 Max.

I have working Air Induction and MSD Ignition. New timing Gear, Johnson Lifters and Chrome Moly HD push Rods. New oil Pump, just the stock 376 HP from the Factory Engine. Well-built Carbs. are up jetted for the Air Induction and Headers.

Dual Exhaust exit out the Diffuser at the Tail Pipes. The only thing I can compare that experience to: was riding in my Fathers Vett. on the race track with him when I was a kid. Don't get me wrong, Dad's corvette was a 1968 427 Tri-Power 435 HP and Blue printed and balanced to 500 HP, standard shift, no ac Vehicle Convertible. For a moment I was Trans fixed. MIKE OUT.

Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:05 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017