[John V.]

Well that was almost too easy. I won't claim I know the answer for certain until I find more examples.

But my hypothesis is that ALL builds with Red Line Tires in '64 were built with Code A Black Wheels.

That is true for the Balt build Baron posted, Tire Code FR indicated that one got Red Lines.

And I just found another such "exception".

11/26 Pontiac built post coupe GTO showing Tire Type 07 (boxes 72 and 73) which also means Red Lines for the Pontiac builds.

This GTO was Code FFA, Yorktown Blue with Black Wheels. It does not have a Wheel Cover option. blanks in Box 46 and 52 and too early for the Wires although Box 41 is also blank FWIW. Early year that means it was not equipped with the then optional standard front seat belts.

I'm guessing PMD decided to always mount Red Lines on Black Wheels because of very low anticipated usage. Not enough volume to justify mounting them to 6 different color wheels. Or maybe they feared the Red Lines would aesthetically clash with the other color wheels. I wonder if this was same policy for '65?

I'm continuing to sift thru my records, will report others that fit my hypothesis.

[Jack P.]

I have a 5A build Fremont 65 with no wheel paint code. The PHS shows an optional wheel cover that covers the entire wheel. I can post info if anyone wants it.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by John V.

...my hypothesis is that ALL builds with Red Line Tires in '64 were built with Code A Black Wheels.

That is true for the Balt build Baron posted, Tire Code FR indicated that one got Red Lines.

And I just found another such "exception".

That's a Real good lead.

I was even thinking too, that the Gulfstream Vert may possibly have been customer request for black wheels instead of Aqua.
It was definitely a hand-picked customer ordered car.

The 1964 Redline Tire factor will probably pan out though.
Sounds pretty strong

I wonder if this was same policy for '65?

Probably won't pan out to carry over into 1965 though.
The 1965 LL-L example had "CC" Redline Tires

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Jack P.

I have a 5A build Fremont 65 with no wheel paint code. The PHS shows an optional wheel cover that covers the entire wheel. I can post info if anyone wants it.

Yes Jack, please do.
PHS and Trim Tag too, if you have them.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 64 SS-S (Saddle Bronze) example i have on file - did not have RedLines.
It has tire code FY .

So it keeps the spirit of 1964 RedLine Tire / black rims alive.
That was the only 64 i have on file with Non-Code-A wheel color.

I can remember a time ago when the 3rd Letter on 65's was thought to be the Pinstripe color. (was said "A" was White Stripe)
It never held water very well at all , especially when 64's had the coding too - but no stripes on the cars. Just reminiscing ...

[John V.]

Good stuff! But here's what I've uncovered quickly from some hard copy records.

FFE KC built GTO Hardtop. Late March built (C27). Code FY Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers. That fits my hypothesis.

But an S1A Balt built GTO Convertible doesn't fit. Code FY Whitewalls and no apparent Wheel Covers. Box 48 shows code 4 which my decode research concluded was for the Spare Tire Cover alone. Dec build so too early for the Wires option. Saddle Bronze with Saddle Wheels would have been expected but shows Black Wheels instead.

It was "built" about a day earlier (L9) than the one Baron posted (L10), and about 1000 VIN units earlier. Balt normally built about 100-200 Pontiac A bodies each day so the date code which relates to the "Broadcast Date" probably doesn't tell us much about the Final Assembly date. One curious thing from the PHS, Balt sometimes coded the Broadcast Date with a funky letter coding (see the PHS Baron posted). But also used the standard numeric code both before and after the one Baron posted so no apparent cutoff switch from one to the other format. The L9 build shows standard numeric coding.

An SSS Balt built GTO Hardtop does fit. Code FY Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers. Saddle Bronze with Saddle Wheels. Built in January (A24).

If anybody has KC and Balt records to check, note that the GTO Whitewalls were code FY early year and changed to Code FZ later. Red Lines were Code FR all year.

Could be Baltimore didn't stock the non-black wheels prior to mid year since both Balt exceptions are from Dec. Or could have something to do with them being Convertibles since both Balt exceptions are Convertibles.

I still like my Red Lines hypothesis but not enough records to study. If anybody has a '64 PHS showing the Red Lines with non-Black Wheels, would be interested to know about it with Plant and Time Built identified.

It is possible that my KC/Balt decode is wrong for Code 484 as the Spare Tire Cover. I am confident that 481 is the Deluxe Wheel Covers and 482 is the Custom Wheel Covers. Only other codes I have seen on the KC and Balt records for Box 48 is 484 and 485. I find it just a little odd that I have found 484 and 485 commonly which I deduced as the Spare Tire Cover alone and the Deluxe Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination respectively. But odd that I don't think I've ever seen 486 which I would have interpreted as the Custom Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination. I did have pretty solid documentation on a build that had the Deluxe Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination for the code 485. But I assumed Chevy used the same additive coding that PMD was using to deduce the Code 484 was the Spare Tire Cover alone. Made logical sense to me but the lack of any 486 coded KC/Balt docs leaves open that I have misinterpreted Code 484 and would perhaps remove the exception for the S1A build I listed above.

[John V.]

Took a deeper dive into my records. First, it was the KC Data Plates for the Convertibles that had strange coding. They were 3 character but the 3rd character was a duplicate of the Convertible Top color code, a numeric code. So you might see V11 for a Grenadier Red Convertible with White Top. The Top color code 1 just repeated. The PHS doc will still show the 3rd character alpha code for the Wheel Color.

No idea why KC coded the Convertible Data Plates this way.

[John V.]

Next up, if my Red Lines hypothesis is valid at all, it is NOT without exception.

The F1E build I mentioned the other day is a 6/8 Pontiac Plant build GTO Convertible. No Wheel Covers with 07 Red Lines. Yorktown Blue, White Top, and Yorktown Blue Wheels.

Only '64 GTO record I could find with non-Black Wheels and Red Lines.

[John V.]

HHE Skyline Blue with Yorktown Blue Wheels. Pontiac Plant 7/15, GTO Hardtop with 06 Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers.

QQU Gulfstream Aqua with Gulfstream Aqua Wheels. Pontiac Plant 11/14, GTO Hardtop with 06 Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers.

Q1U Gulfstream Aqua with White Cordova Top and Gulfstream Aqua Wheels. Pontiac Plant 3/31, GTO Hardtop with 06 Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers.

QQQ Gulfstream Aqua with Gulfstream Aqua Wheels. Balt Plant G16, non GTO with Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers.

These all have the expected non-Black Wheel colors.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Great 64 wheel color examples, John.



Non-relevant question about 64's from Baltimore Plant for anyone -
anyone know what Code 465 relates to ?

I think it is a Non-Price effect / production code - just pointing to standard equipment items for Lemans/GTO

It will be combo of 461 and 464
Best i can find =
461 - DELUXE WHEEL (thinking steering wheel)
464 - DECOR Mxx (maybe wheel opening moldings)

or could be
461 - 6" Rims
464 - Poverty Caps

Neither of my #465 Code examples had a hubcap option

[John V.]

Baron, I have more data to post but first your Balt question.

On a '64 Balt or KC Shipping Order (PHS record) Box 46 has nothing to do with the options you've suggested.

Your best bet is to get a copy of my long ago article published Smoke Signals in 3 parts/issues circa spring 2011 as I recall. I have made a little decode progress since the article was published but not a lot.

There were a lot of unknowns as a result of a dearth of data, but I was able to decode a LOT of the KC & Balt docs, something that PHS was never able to do. A great many common options were definitively translated but some less common codes I was only able to make my best guess. The verbiage in the article helped to explain which ones I was most confident about and which ones I was not so confident of.

The first thing to know, you cannot use Pontiac Sales Codes to decode the options on a '64 KC or Balt document.

Here is what I can tell you about Box 46. I did not suggest any caveats to these codes so they were pretty certain although I try never to say never or always.

461 - Tinted Glass - Windshield Only (Pontiac Sales Code 532)
462 - Tinted Glass - All Windows (Pontiac Sales Code 531)
464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror (Pontiac Sales Code 442)
465 - Tinted Windshield & Inside Tilt Mirror
466 - Tinted Glass - All Windows & Inside Tilt Mirror

Hope that helps.

[G.T.O.boy]

Not all build sheets have the tire code, mine has A on the data plate for wheel but had the deluxe cap option and is a sunfire red Frement plant car, tire was a redline and it shows 75014rsw, and the white walls were 75014wsw link is to a pic of my 64 build sheet. PHS also decoded my gear ratio wrong as a 3.23 but if you decode the build sheet ratio it is a 3.55 without an optional ratio on the invoice sheet February car F1 not K1, verified on ring gear and ratio stamp on housing, link to pic of build sheet. Wish someone who knows these build sheets would start a tread on these for 64-65 as there seems to be three different build sheets for these cars, my 65 which is a white car I will have to look at, non rally wheel car. Also have a 64 and a 65 lemans cars that had dog dishes, 64 is white and 65 in mayfare maize, will try to look at these cars this weekend.


http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1581274962

[John V.]

G.T.O.boy, I try never to say never but I have yet to see a '64 PHS record that did not identify the installed tire from any of the 4 Plants. Some of the Fremont docs were very poorly copied to microfiche so the copy you get from PHS may be barely legible. Most are legible for the typed info even if the preprinted form box labels are "missing".

For a Fremont record, there will be a box in the 2nd line labeled TIRES.

For a GTO, one of two choices will show.

75014RSW will indicate the build got the Red Lines.

If it shows 75014W2R instead, that will indicate the build got the Whitewalls, a no cost GTO choice. It is not clear how the choice was made but a large number of '64 GTOs were built with them from all 4 Plants.

At Fremont, if the GTO got Whitewalll, you will see an option listed for them as well. The options were listed alphabetically by UPC and will show:

P30 WHT W TIRE OVR

which translates as the UPC P30 Whitewall Tire Over-Ride,

The KC & Balt docs also showed the tire choice by two means. 2 digit numeric coding using boxes 35 & 36 plus the alpha coding in the TIRE CODE box toward the bottom of the form. The 1st letter was for the size (F was 7.50x14) and the 2nd letter was the sidewall type (R was Red Line, Y or Z was Whitewall).

The Pontiac doc only coded the Tires in the Boxes 72 & 73 (labeled TIRE TYPE) using numeric coding. 06 was the 7.50x14 Whitewalls and 07 was the 7.50x14 Red Lines.

[John V.]

Cool GTO BTW. Your GTO probably just got in under the wire to get the 3.55 axle.

The 3.55 was standard with the Tripower option from the start of the year. In January, PMD announced that the standard axle for the Tripower was being changed in production to the 3.23.

Documentation on that change might have suggested the change would have occurred before yours was preferenced but I'm guessing the change might have taken awhile before it got implemented at the satellite Plants. So I'm not surprised that yours got it as standard in your Fremont built Tripower equipped GTO.

A lesser known running change dealt with the Radiator choice.

From the beginning, all 3.55 and 3.90 geared GTOs required the HD Radiator. Since the 3.55 was standard with the Tripower, the GTO with Tripower was also getting the 2-5/8" thick HD Radiator as standard equipment.

Without fanfare and without any documentation that I'm aware of, PMD began installing the 2" Radiator in the Tripower GTOs sometime around March. I believe they made that decision as a direct result of the switch to the 3.23 axle. From then on in '64, if you special ordered the 3.55 axle, you were also required to order the HD Radiator at extra cost.

Your GTO would have gotten the HD Radiator "free".

There is an old thread in this forum where I was tabulating all Sunfire Red builds. If I haven't already included yours, if you post the Time Built code from your Data Plate, I will dredge up that thread and add yours to the tally. Thanks.

[Jack P.]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Yes Jack, please do.
PHS and Trim Tag too, if you have them.

Here you go. This is a original 30,000 mile car. So the wheel color is on the build sheet but not the data tag.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178

[John V.]

Earlier I suggested that Alamo Beige builds could have gotten Saddle Wheels. Turns out I was wrong and in the process I believe I've confirmed the code for the Singapore Gold Wheels, Code T.

Here's the build that confirmed that:

RRT Alamo Beige with Singapore Gold Wheels. Fremont Plant 5/14, GTO Hardtop with 75014W2R Whitewalls (and P30 option code) and no Wheel Covers.

Here's a couple that did follow my Red Lines hypothesis.

FFA Yorktown Blue with Black Wheels. Pontiac Plant 11/26, GTO Post Coupe with 07 Red Lines and no Wheel Covers.

SSA Saddle Bronze with Black Wheels. Fremont Plant Nov built, GTO Hardtop with 75014RSW Red Lines and no Wheel Covers.

And finally, a couple Fremont docs where the Wheel Color was very difficult to read but based on the options might have had non-Black Wheels.

PPQ Aquamarine with uncertain Wheel Color. Fremont Plant 3/13, GTO Hardtop with 75014RSW Red Lines and no Wheel Covers. I would have expected it to show U code Gulfstream Aqua Wheels but I read it as a Q.

I just realized that I also read QQQ on a Balt build I previously posted.

I'm wondering if maybe Pontiac coded Gulfstream Aqua Wheels as "U" while KC, Balt, and Fremont coded them as Q?

Something to watch for I guess.

S7Y Saddle Bronze, Saddle Top, with uncertain Wheel Color. Fremont Plant 2/13, Lemans Convertible with 7.00 x 14 Whitewalls and no Wheel Covers. I would have expected it to show S code Saddle Wheels but it was near impossible to read. I settled on a Y but could have been anything. Wish I had a pic of the Data Plate for that one. If I was betting, the Code was probably the expected S but I sure wasn't seeing it that way.

That's all I could find.

[bill ryder]

Iris wheels. Someone was wondering...

Is the - between the PP what you were referring to John V.?

"Bill"!

[John V.]

Bill, you know I'm not so well versed on the '65s but pretty sure that P-P is just the standard way KC coded the Lower Body Color/Upper Body Color with a dash between.

And pretty sure the Iris Mist Wheels on that one were to suit the Owner's taste since Iris Mist was not offered as a Wheel Color for '65.

The 3rd character wheel code on the Data Plate only applies to the Fremont Plant Data Plate. The PHS record can be checked to discover the wheel color for the other plant builds (Fremont as well if the Data Plate is not available)..

[gto19]

Let’s see that bad boy ! Seems like a cool car !

Originally Posted by Jack P.

Here you go. This is a original 30,000 mile car. So the wheel color is on the build sheet but not the data tag.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...1&d=1599784178

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by John V.

...
The first thing to know, you cannot use Pontiac Sales Codes to decode the options on a '64 KC or Balt document.

Here is what I can tell you about Box 46. I did not suggest any caveats to these codes so they were pretty certain although I try never to say never or always.

461 - Tinted Glass - Windshield Only (Pontiac Sales Code 532)
462 - Tinted Glass - All Windows (Pontiac Sales Code 531)
464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror (Pontiac Sales Code 442)
465 - Tinted Windshield & Inside Tilt Mirror
466 - Tinted Glass - All Windows & Inside Tilt Mirror

Hope that helps.

Good Grief on the Baltimore / Kansas codes !!
Think i recall seeing some comments before about them being wack jobs now (brain jiggle).
And about PHS having difficulties with deciphering a lot of 64's - to the point of not doing breakdowns on them any longer ... iirc

Believe you nailed it down flat on the 1964 #465 code. Great Work
I was using a 1965 Pontiac Plant Buildsheet as a cheat sheet to try to pull the codes.
Have some other docs on those 2 cars that back up your findings - will post them tomorrow.